Live Audio Quality

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:35 am

djsynchro wrote: If you mix normally to the masterbus (not more than 20db over) and every now and then the meter shoots in the read all you have to then is pull the masterfader back until it just touches 0db... render to 32 or 24bit... done.

I know this isn't normal mixing - but ...
if you put a loop on track one, with a utilitity turned up full
now put a utility on the master and set it at -35db to negate the effect of the one on the audio track

pick a new audio track and set the input to resample, record the current goings on and look at the wave.

clipped.

there is something mysterious in the mixbus where the magic 32 bit restorative powers of the 6 positive versus 6 negative utility are lost.
Not being sarcastic - I mean it.
I think we have discussed this before?

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:48 am

djsynchro wrote:
sweetjesus wrote: The compressors clip quite easily, so does the filter and the master meter does not have the proper headroom which I have come to expect of many DAW's.
With all due respect, dude...
What ARE you talking about? Maybe you make nasty clicking noises by driving the compressor hard , or clicky sounds with the filter/envelope, but that is not clipping. There IS no clipping in the internal signal path, you do NOT have to have your channels near unity gain like on an analgue mixer, you can do whatever you want.

Take a normal signal, put 6 uilities at full amplification on them, put 6 more at full attenuation... same signal is back bit-for-bit. Do the reverse, 6 attenuating, then 6 amplifying... your signal will totally disappear, then magically reappear.

If you mix normally to the masterbus (not more than 20db over) and every now and then the meter shoots in the read all you have to then is pull the masterfader back until it just touches 0db... render to 32 or 24bit... done.

I'm comparing to real life digital and also valve equipment I've used as well as compared to compressors I used on other computing platforms.

As for the artifacts I've been getting on the masterbus, the meter has totally not been going into reds.

In fact, when it is maybe a few chunks below where I get clipping and distortion, it sounds great but if i turn it up and bearing in mind still not going into "RED", it is creating some weird distorting sounds... NO RED ... CLIPPING... very odd.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:52 am

leisuremuffin wrote:
sweetjesus wrote: but it sounds like you haven't been around enough serious engineers to know that many of them rely on similar tools and visual reference devices such as spectrum analyzers and whatnot to get the job done.
Wow, that's nice of you. We were talking about the track meters, not a specrum analyzer or phase correlation scope, which live doesn't have anyway. If you know of any engineer who uses the track meters on the board to do something with mixing, please let me know. Good luck with that. Because track meters are used for setting input levels and that's about it.

I don't know, i'm kind pissed off at you right now for implying that i don't know what i'm talking about. As far as that other person goes, untill he stops using that fake bad english i won't address him.

.lm.

I never implied that dude. He who fakes english then edits posts later (he edited the post I made reference to) suggested that using any visual aids in mixing makes you not serious about audio, whereas I say that there are many visual aids serious engineers use. Just because you dont use them doesnt mean you are not serious, but the adverse applies where if you do in fact use them you can be quite serious.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:00 am

ooops, sorry i thought you were talking to me...

carry on.

.lm.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:02 pm

someone said that the audio quality and the overloading/clipping problem are one & the same thing? How do you work that out?! They're not the same thing at all, im not suggesting that live's sound quality is bad, im saying that there's something not right about the summing or general levels that live produces.
and not answering someone's concerns cos they use 'fake english' is crazy, who cares, if they have problems that others are evidently also having what does it matter how he types.

djsynchro · Post by **djsynchro** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:24 pm

Angstrom wrote:
djsynchro wrote: there is something mysterious in the mixbus where the magic 32 bit restorative powers of the 6 positive versus 6 negative utility are lost.
Not being sarcastic - I mean it.
I think we have discussed this before?

Yes I know (and I'm glad you found that too) if you go past +20 db turning the master down won't help it will clip (Someone at Ableton: Why is this?????)
Look, what I do is this, if I for example boost a lot with EQ, I turn the output thing down a bit what's the point of meters sitting solid in the red, but if something peaks into the red, that's fine. By the time all the faders in a a mix are going it will peak into the red a bit, so then I turn the master fader down. That's it.

I used to have an analogue studio so I'm familiar with adjusting every signal & gainstructure & all that stuff then I had an O2R with an Akai HDR system the O2R is fixed point digital so I would be a real spastic nevr having any channel clipping.

Sweetjesus: Could you post like a LiveClip with an instrument from the librabry playing a compressor that demonstrates the clipping? I'm intrigued.

djsynchro · Post by **djsynchro** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:27 pm

sweetjesus wrote: In fact, when it is maybe a few chunks below where I get clipping and distortion, it sounds great but if i turn it up and bearing in mind still not going into "RED", it is creating some weird distorting sounds... NO RED ... CLIPPING... very odd.

Can you send me a short clip or sumthin? I'm totally mistified!!!

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:26 pm

I'm mystified too. With the way that i work, I've never heard the master bus clip without going red. In fact, i've had the master go into the red without clipping.

Maybe you're dealing with something that has some really really hot and short peaks but doesn't ever have a hot average. I'm not sure how like's metering works, if is it peak or RMS and how fast it reacts. Why don't you throw an inspector plugin on the master of the session you have a problem with and let us know what it says?

Meef --> The individual in question is not here for help or to contribute to the forum. He is only here for fun and games.

.lm.

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:50 pm

It would be nice to hear something from Ableton about all this - just to see their thoughts about it and to see if it is something they are working on for a future release.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:02 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:I'm mystified too. With the way that i work, I've never heard the master bus clip without going red. In fact, i've had the master go into the red without clipping.

Maybe you're dealing with something that has some really really hot and short peaks but doesn't ever have a hot average. I'm not sure how like's metering works, if is it peak or RMS and how fast it reacts. Why don't you throw an inspector plugin on the master of the session you have a problem with and let us know what it says?

Meef --> The individual in question is not here for help or to contribute to the forum. He is only here for fun and games.

.lm.

I'm the first to admit when i am wrong and in this case i have been wrong, although i havent done any technical analysis it seems that live at its max green setting is hotter than the clip limit of my Layla24.

From memory, I don't recall having this issue in Cubase SX however, I will check and get back to you guys.

In fact I actually have a channel going into red, and it sounds clip free to me in the mix...

The only thing that made me suspect the compressors were that I had two on the Master, one for small transients and one for the longer chunks of sound.

radeon · Post by **radeon** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:11 pm

sweetjesus wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:
sweetjesus wrote: but it sounds like you
I never implied that dude. He who fakes english then edits posts later (he edited the post I made reference to) suggested that using any visual aids in mixing makes you not serious about audio, whereas I say that there are many visual aids serious engineers use. Just because you dont use them doesnt mean you are not serious, but the adverse applies where if you do in fact use them you can be quite serious.

It was lesiuremuffin who say not to use meters are for flashing lights I agree with you on what you say so why you pick on me but you knows it was Lm who make words for flashing lights meters Not ME

YOUR not read my posts for sure and you make LIE that I fake the english and edit my words or your words I do not and get tired of peopels make the lies for me so please stop this becasue I now want to make Ableton companies to know this situation. I make postings to make interest converstaions and now you peoples tells lies for me so I wantings this to stop now. It is not good and fair and I dont understandings this I writings on other forum and nobodies to say I make lies only this forum.
So get backs to the point of the words on this trhreads

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:16 pm

radeon wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:

It was lesiuremuffin who say not to use meters are for flashing lights I agree with you on what you say so why you pick on me but you knows it was Lm who make words for flashing lights meters Not ME YOUR not read my posts for sure and you make LIE that I fake the english and edit my words or your words I do not and get tired of peopels make the lies for me so please stop this becasue I now want to make Ableton companies to know this situation. I make postings to make interest converstaions and now you peoples tells lies for me so I wantings this to stop now. It is not good and fair and I dont understandings this I writings on other forum and nobodies to say I make lies only this forum.
So get backs to the point of the words on this trhreads

you edited your post, it's in the 'quote' i did.

rad30n · Post by **rad30n** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:19 pm

radeon wrote:There you go ableton im not the only one!

See to your optimisations or have a look at your programmer skills. Not all programmers are saaavy on the optimisation front. Gimme a call if you want me to have a look at it

radeon wrote:I have three gig of ram installed on my Dual2g G5 and the same on a P4 3.2 both of these machines are optimised for working with audio. When i use Logic 7 im giddy with the amount of plugins and softs I can use. Not so with ableton live because It makes no difference I assign clips to ram. I doubt more than 1gig of ram makes any difference in this software.

radeon wrote:Be patient

I cant continue to use this soft without a major update for more than six months more. Im not impatient NONE OF US ARE its about my investment of time in a software thats missing a shit load of features. If Ableton told me today version six wont be out for anything shorter than six months I would drop Live straight away.
Speculate!!

radeon wrote:This is what I said on my very first point on this forum. To repeat I said "ableton needs to work their code".''''' This type of gui sluggyness is purely down to amateur coding. Fucking disgraceful for a software thats on version five!

and on on and on me fuck liar full complete shit.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:21 pm

radeon wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:

It was lesiuremuffin who say not to use meters are for flashing lights I agree with you on what you say so why you pick on me but you knows it was Lm who make words for flashing lights meters Not ME YOUR not read my posts for sure and you make LIE that I fake the english and edit my words or your words I do not and get tired of peopels make the lies for me so please stop this becasue I now want to make Ableton companies to know this situation. I make postings to make interest converstaions and now you peoples tells lies for me so I wantings this to stop now. It is not good and fair and I dont understandings this I writings on other forum and nobodies to say I make lies only this forum.
So get backs to the point of the words on this trhreads

359 posts. Going from near perfect english to a language that is just not too good to be true

At least use a spellchecker

London.... They should just rename it to Arkham.
Yes, too manie badman i wtched. Just jokering

radeon · Post by **radeon** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:21 pm

I becoming tired of bad rubbish speaking on this query and abletons should make this like digidesign to answer all querie because this infos doesn not become for us to see robert only make some words that are standards so it is not the eyes reveal or anythinks for that. I make to many frustrate words becasue my english and am sick to the eyes of peopels in this place make fool of me and say thinks like i have no experiences. I mix many films and many records so shut up your faces I know what I do and understanding audio I only cant speak good english.

Read this white paper and make educate for your minds becase three peopels need to understadn why Live overload and this explains thinks I say no more words to this now

http://akwww.digidesign.com/support/doc ... tMixer.pdf