music theory question

[velocipedewheels]

major scale
1 2 3.4 5 6 7.1 with 1/2 steps from 3-4 and 7-1.
minor scale
1 2.b3 4 5.b6 b7 1 with 1/2 steps from 2-3 and 5-6.
same as major except b3, b6, and b7.

major chord - (triad)
1 3 5
minor chord (triad)
1 b3 5 same as major except b3.

major seventh chord
1 3 5 7
dominant seventh chord
1 3 5 b7
minor seventh chord
1 b3 5 b7
half dim or minor 7 flat 5 chord
1 b3 b5 b7
fully dim chord
1 b3 b5 bb7 (double flat 7 is same as major 6)

so in reality, half dim and fully dim chords are a lot closer to minor than major, due to the intervals used.

[longjohns]

(double flat 7 is same as major 6)

this almost seemed helpful, but then i went back to the fact that so far as i've learned, you cannot create a diminished chord out of major scale tones. fine, the bb7 is the same as 6, but

so ok, we're talking about CMaj

the supposed diminished chord is B. so the Bdim needs an Ab, which doesn't exist in the Cmajor scale.

but i know kung fu is talking about 3 note chords. so in that case, how can there even be a half-diminished chord at all? doesn't half-diminished need to have a minor 7th, or else what's the difference between the two?

I do appreciate your politeness and helpfulness though, unlike SOME PEOPLE hehe

[PLB]

the supposed diminished chord is B. so the Bdim needs an Ab, which doesn't exist in the Cmajor scale.

it's ok to add accidentals when making chords and scales, for instance harmonic minor scales raise the 7th a half step.

natural d minor: D E F G A bB C D

harmonic d minor: D E F G A bB #C D

[velocipedewheels]

so ok, we're talking about CMaj

the supposed diminished chord is B. so the Bdim needs an Ab, which doesn't exist in the Cmajor scale.

but i know kung fu is talking about 3 note chords. so in that case, how can there even be a half-diminished chord at all? doesn't half-diminished need to have a minor 7th, or else what's the difference between the two?

I do appreciate your politeness and helpfulness though, unlike SOME PEOPLE hehe

Right, well it doesn't have to exist in the major scale to be a chord of that scale, or a chord of that KEY SIGNATURE. Otherwise we wouldn't have very many chords.

Yes, kungfu discussed 3-note chords. But his discussion didn't say that 3-note chords are the only chords that can exist.

Yes, half diminished does need a minor seventh. That's the only difference between half diminished (minor7(b5)) and diminished.

one piece of theory got left out regarding aug and dim triads, but I don't think that info will help you right now. Does this help:

Minor7(b5) or half diminished:
1 b3 b5 b7

Diminished or fully diminished:
1 b3 b5 bb7.

See?

[longjohns]

Right, well it doesn't have to exist in the major scale to be a chord of that scale, or a chord of that KEY SIGNATURE. Otherwise we wouldn't have very many chords.

could you please elaborate a little bit on this, it doesn't make too much sense to me. it seems like by this logic you could say that any chord was in the C major scale.

I have been learning a song with a few diminished 7th chords, for example:

(it's written in F)
G-7 -> C7#5 -> FMaj7 -> F#o7
G-7 -> G#o7 -> A-7 -> A-7/G

my take on this was that the F#o7 was serving as a vii going to Gminor

[velocipedewheels]

YOu seemed confused about the types of chord tones that are supposed to be used in a given situation.

Ok try this: tell me what are the chords for a C Major progression?

If you have that knowledge, that's pretty much what wer're talking about so far as I know. Sometimes if you are confused it is difficult to ask the right question.

[longjohns]

ok, i'm considering the seventh chords for CMaj to be:

I CMaj7
ii D-7
iii E-7
IV FMaj7
V G7
vi A-7
vii B-7b5

[longjohns]

and to try to clarify my question:

it has been stated on this thread that both a diminished chord and half diminished chord lie within the major scale.

if we are talking about half-diminished, then we've already established that we're talking about 4-note 7th chords.

i understand that there is a B diminished triad in the C major scale.

what i am trying to clarify is that you seem to have said that Bo7 can be within the C major scale, when to me it seems to be the vii of C harmonic minor.

thanks again for your help

[PLB]

and to try to clarify my question:

it has been stated on this thread that both a diminished chord and half diminished chord lie within the major scale.

if we are talking about half-diminished, then we've already established that we're talking about 4-note 7th chords.

i understand that there is a B diminished triad in the C major scale.

what i am trying to clarify is that you seem to have said that Bo7 can be within the C major scale, when to me it seems to be the vii of C harmonic minor.

thanks again for your help

this is exactly the point of my previous post. in order to get that b diminished you need to add an accidental (flat or sharp or natural) to the top note. this is ok to do and indeed you end up with the same dim 7th that occurs naturally in the c harmonic minor. not every kind of chord is going to occur by itself without some help from accidentals...

[longjohns]

thanks.

i found something on wikipedia which helped me with this too. the "Fully Diminished Leading-Tone Seventh (vii°7): B, D, F, A flat" is _borrowed_ from the parallel minor.

so is it correct to say that while Bo7 is not built from the C major scale, that it can be considered to be within the KEY of C major, by virtue of being borrowed from the parallel C harmonic minor

[PLB]

so is it correct to say that while Bo7 is not built from the C major scale, that it can be considered to be within the KEY of C major, by virtue of being borrowed from the parallel C harmonic minor

no it isn't in the key of C Major at all (without accidentals)...

it's relationship to c minor doesn't really have anything to do with it (with how you label it in C Major i mean)...

[longjohns]

i think this has to do with the difference between key and key signature, as amanda was saying earlier

[DeadlyKungFu]

i wish you hadn't gotten all dickish on this thread

I wholeheartedly agree. I spent some time writing that response, thinking it over, generating steam, no real excuse, my apologies, I had a bug up my ass yesterday, family drama.

But this shit is b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

Re: Rock minor and its bastardization... Ouch, Therein lies the beauty of the blues, the microtones around the b3 and b5, the emotion, toying with the stronger tones in the key. That's an aspect of prog rock (for example) that I don't dig, too sterile to my ears (not a dig, just talking shop, my dickish opinion ).

I guess just hearing answers like "start a c major scale on d, that's kinda like flamenco" are just absolutely incorrect, and in my opinion, the person seeking the answer, would like to know correct answers, not incorrect ones. Like when I ask a software question, I prefer a correct answer.

yeah, stuff like that helped to fuel my dickish response, where to begin with a post like that? It shows some knowlege but some misconceptions, you want to help but can't get over how misleading it all is. Also over the web you really don't know your audience or how seriously to take them.

maybe you can help me understand how half-diminished and diminished chords come from a major scale

Diminished chord - 1, b3, b5
In C that would be a Bdim chord
B D F - all of which fall in the C major scale

Half diminished 7th chord - 1, b3, b5, b7
In C it's built off of the 7th degree, B, so you have the notes
B D F A - all of which fall in the C major scale

BUT

Diminished 7 chord - 1 b3 b5 bb7
In C that would be a type of B chord:
B D F G# , the G# does NOT fall in the C major scale so it isn't diatonic to C major/A minor.
This screws me up time and again with the 4 note name of the diatonic diminished chord, the 4 note chord isn't just a dim7, it's half dim7, it's just a name but it always gets me. It stems from the rules of stacking major/minor thirds.

Dim chords are pretty much an unused corner of music theory, unless you're doing jazz and prog rock. In the rock/blues playing I've studied dim chords are very rare and usually incidental. The only time I ever consider them is on the web discussing music theory.

Right, well it doesn't have to exist in the major scale to be a chord of that scale, or a chord of that KEY SIGNATURE. Otherwise we wouldn't have very many chords.

The very definition of harmonizing a major scale is to create chords from the notes in that scale, to be diatonic. I'm sorry but your statement could not be more wrong (trying to get a point across without being a dick).

There are 7 modes, if you just take the 3, 4, and 5 note chords that's 21 chords per key, not enough?!?!


Again, my apologies for being a dick, I promise to chill the fuck out.

In the context of Ableton, just throw a scale or chord plug-in in front of your MIDI and everything will fall into place.

'learn all of music theory, forget it and play' (paraphrase)
-Miles Davis

[PLB]

Dim chords are pretty much an unused corner of music theory, unless you're doing jazz and prog rock. In the rock/blues playing I've studied dim chords are very rare and usually incidental. The only time I ever consider them is on the web discussing music theory.

one exception ...diminished chords are used a lot in all classical music

[Meef Chaloin]

id just improvise a lot & experiment with lines, you soon learn what notes you can use. you dont need to know all this stuff, jimi hendrix played by ear & never knew anything about modes. just play what sounds right, thats all that counts in the end.