OT, PLEASE READ, VERY IMPORTANT

[DeadlyKungFu]

Come over here to England, and pay seven bucks+ a gallon.

Then whine.

The USA has 5% of the world's population, and uses 25% of the world's resources. Sorry, but no pity here.

pwned!

You're completely overlooking major uses of petroleum, plastics and other synthetic materials.

This is an international forum, I don't think you had that in mind when you posted this. The subject heading you chose is attention whoring and an overstatement when put into context (this is a music forum).

American's bitching about gas prices on an International forum is like Paris Hilton bitching about weight problems on an anorexia forum. We have refineries, armies and good ol' boys for leaders, we already have cheap gas when you put it into context.

Sorry man, you're a cool dude, I just don't think this thread is going to fly, but I'll look for Amoco, BP and others.

BTW my license plate reads 1LESSUV (juat thought I'd toss that in there).

[snowtires]

i'd just like to point out that i read in several different sources (cnn, ny times) that gas in iraq and iran costs 10 cents a gallon. hell, i want to go to war with them based soley on that. seriously, though, i mean, we all know bush went to war for oil, so we're there already, there's nothing we can do about that fact anymore, why aren't we seeing some of these oil prices?

p.s. anyone who doesn't believe we went to war for oil, look at the whole iran thing. they might as well be saying, ‘we don’t have nukes yet but we will soon’ and the best our government can do is say, ‘something has to be done about iran, let’s have a meeting with the un security council!’

[robbmasters]

At the risk of taking this even further off topic... I know we may not like the idea of Iran having nukes, but I'm sure they don't like the idea of is (i.e. the West) having nukes either! And since we do have a whole bunch of them, what gives us the right to tell any other country (Iran, North Korea, wherever) that they can't have any*? And that goes double for nuclear power. One rule for us another for them? And we wonder why the Middle East hates the West...

[* I image the official answer is some agreement made at the end of some war or another, but I'm not sure that that's really the point...]

[snowtires]

At the risk of taking this even further off topic... I know we may not like the idea of Iran having nukes, but I'm sure they don't like the idea of is (i.e. the West) having nukes either! And since we do have a whole bunch of them, what gives us the right to tell any other country (Iran, North Korea, wherever) that they can't have any*? And that goes double for nuclear power. One rule for us another for them? And we wonder why the Middle East hates the West...

[* I image the official answer is some agreement made at the end of some war or another, but I'm not sure that that's really the point...]

yeah, it's pretty touchy. but iran has been a somewhat radical power in the past 20 odd years, they are definitely more likely to use nukes than, say... scotland. i mean, india probably shouldn't have nuclear power either, i'm sure pakistan doesn't like that too much. there are good people in iran, of course, but their government isn't the greatest. not to compare the two literally, but let's go back 60 years. say we had nukes back then. if we knew hitler was crazy, if they knew he wanted 'nuclear power,' we'd get nervous. that's the situation we're in now, albeit without the homicidal dictator. a volatile government is possibly working towards having the most powerful weapon known to man. it's a scary thought. what's even scarier is that they hate us so much. they feel they've been wronged by us and they seem like they might be more than just a little pissed off about it. as far as they're concerned, we've done a lot to put them down, most recently we somehow got blamed for those mohammad cartoons. do you REALLY want them to have nukes, now? i don't even want to think about what would happen if north korea got nukes. yikes!

[rasputin]

You can't be serious. As heinous as GWB is, Kim Jong Il makes him look like Mother Teresa. And although you can certainly attack the US on the grounds of imperialism, as far as I know the US hasn't made it an official government policy that another country should be annhilated (as Iran has said of Israel.)

And as far as 10 cent/gallon gas(petrol)--yes, that may be so but the average yearly income in those countries is probably 1% of that in the US.

r.

[robbmasters]

Am I right in thinking the US is the only nation to have actually used nuclear weapons in conflict? Either way, the fact that it has done so makes it look pretty likely that it would do so again. Therefore, surely Iran has at least as good an argument for demanding the US gets rid of its nuclear weapons?

I don't like the idea of Iran getting nuclear weapons. But I'm not convinced we have any kind of moral right to insist that they don't. It just seems like bully-boy tactics to me. "We're bigger than you so we're going to tell you what you can and can't do, and woe betide you if you disobey us! But of course we're going to carry on doing what we tell you you can't..."

I don't like the idea of my crazy next door neighbour getting a shotgun. But I'm not convinced I have any kind of moral right to insist that he doesn't.

(I don't actually have a crazy next door neighbour, by the way. As far as I know... )

[DeadlyKungFu]

what gives us the right to tell any other country (Iran, North Korea, wherever) that they can't have any*? And that goes double for nuclear power. One rule for us another for them?

[* I image the official answer is some agreement made at the end of some war or another, but I'm not sure that that's really the point...]

Yeah, it's called the non-proliferation treaty it was signed as part of the SALT treaty, which also bans nukes in space, nukes on the north/south pole and was generally the best thing to come out of the cold war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SALT_treaties Strategic Arms Limitations Treaty
read it.

The Nuclear buildup scared the shit out of everyone so they said, ok, if you have 'em keep 'em, but nobody else can get them. From there the START treaties began STrategic Arms Reduction Treaty.

How quickly people forget. The Geneva Convention's already been crapped all over, does it really matter? The US is going to do whatever it wants anyway, so will Iran, so will the Saudis.

Too much religion, not enough resources, we're fucked. Make music, dance, be happy.

[robbmasters]

OK, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_No ... reaty#Iran

Iran is a signatory state of the NPT

So fair enough, but...

Article X allows a state to leave the treaty if "extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country", giving three months' notice. The state is required to give reasons for leaving the NPT in this notice.

NATO states argue that when a state decides to go to war, the treaty no longer applies; effectively the state leaves the treaty with no notice.

So it seems pretty academic really. If they want out they can get out and then we don't have a leg to stand on.

[DeadlyKungFu]

If they want out they can get out and then we don't have a leg to stand on.

Thanks for checking that out.

Yeah, to me the way Bush got his lawyers to say the Geneva was a moot point so he could torture prisoners was the last straw. Iran could follow Bush's code of ethics and say that SALT isn't valid anymore or doesn't apply to them in this situation and start making nukes.

There are no ethics on the world scene, I dunno, blame the UN?

[mercyplease]

Gas prices aren't a major issue for countries like the UK who's entire span would fit inside the state I live in.

You come on to an International Forum thinking EVERYONE is from the US and then you wonder why your country is hated

then you say the above

Your Petrol (not gas!) is three quarters cheapers than I pay.

I give you zero sympathy and will in fact buy PETROL from whoever it was you mentioned (If I can find one in the UK)

[computo]

At the risk of taking this even further off topic... I know we may not like the idea of Iran having nukes, but I'm sure they don't like the idea of is (i.e. the West) having nukes either! And since we do have a whole bunch of them, what gives us the right to tell any other country (Iran, North Korea, wherever) that they can't have any*? And that goes double for nuclear power. One rule for us another for them? And we wonder why the Middle East hates the West...

[* I image the official answer is some agreement made at the end of some war or another, but I'm not sure that that's really the point...]

yeah, it's pretty touchy. but iran has been a somewhat radical power in the past 20 odd years, they are definitely more likely to use nukes than, say... scotland. i mean, india probably shouldn't have nuclear power either, i'm sure pakistan doesn't like that too much. there are good people in iran, of course, but their government isn't the greatest. not to compare the two literally, but let's go back 60 years. say we had nukes back then. if we knew hitler was crazy, if they knew he wanted 'nuclear power,' we'd get nervous. that's the situation we're in now, albeit without the homicidal dictator. a volatile government is possibly working towards having the most powerful weapon known to man. it's a scary thought. what's even scarier is that they hate us so much. they feel they've been wronged by us and they seem like they might be more than just a little pissed off about it. as far as they're concerned, we've done a lot to put them down, most recently we somehow got blamed for those mohammad cartoons. do you REALLY want them to have nukes, now? i don't even want to think about what would happen if north korea got nukes. yikes!

Yeah! they might use them like us!

Please, Oil? OIL!?!?!

Peak oil is a myth. This is not a matter of oil companies raising prices because of global politics. This is what is called PRICE GOUGING.

remember the California energy crisis? and how it was pure unadulterated bullshit? concocted by the energy companies themselves to run up prices, and create a false sense of demand?

Well welcome to phase two, where the oil companies, who arent regulated by the SEC, can do the same thing, except with more impugnity, because the industry is far more consolidated. There is basically a monopoly, where the companies work in concert, to screw the buyer.

The only reason the gas is cheap in the middle east, is because it would be pretty DAMN hard to explain if it wasnt.

[hambone1]

Gas prices aren't a major issue for countries like the UK who's entire span would fit inside the state I live in.

Not a major issue? Can you elaborate on this statement?

[computo]

I'll elaborate, you're gas is expensive, because your truckers dont have to drive as far to deliver their loads of scooters.

[DeadlyKungFu]

Peak oil is a myth.

1. There is a finite amount of oil on the planet.
2. The human population grows at an exponential rate.
3. Humans are consuming oil at a faster rate every year through personal petrol usage, production of plastic goods and the shipping of every single thing we consume and throw away.

Looks like two trains headed towards each other at ever increasing rates.

What am I missing?

[computo]

Peak oil is a myth.

1. There is a finite amount of oil on the planet.

show me your proof...oh, and not the studies that the oil industry paid for...