Loops and guilt

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:44 pm

lol adonis, and some weed - dont forget the weed!

pulsoc · Post by **pulsoc** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:54 pm

b0unce wrote:heh, and I'm going to show you some stuff I've made. I'll up some stuff, post it in the 'your music' section and let you know when to check.

Well I better like it or I am gonna rag yer theorizing ass out of this forum.

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:19 pm

b0unce wrote:lol adonis, and some weed - dont forget the weed!

Sure right you are!

ILTK · Post by **ILTK** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:35 pm

b0unce wrote:lol adonis, and some weed - dont forget the weed!

And it has to be homegrown hydro, under no less than a 400watt HPS, preferrably a strain you backcrossed back to its progeny yourself

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:41 pm

ILTK wrote: And it has to be homegrown hydro, under no less than a 400watt HPS, preferrably a strain you backcrossed back to its progeny yourself

equals Le Chronique!

Benshik · Post by **Benshik** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:02 pm

I think we should appreciate creativity wherever it is, and not obey to some rigid dogmas like "dont ever use loops".

ok its rather rare, but an unusually placed loop can sound more fresh, witty and creative than yet another ever evolving, overly automated synth sound that is "your own" ...

music can't lie. your song as a whole should sound authentic, whatever ingredients you used to craft it.

funk313 · Post by **funk313** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:07 pm

djadonis206 wrote:The thing about a lot of loops you might sample off vinyl is those are loops of loops of loops of loops - processed flipped and dipped several times over

There's nothing wrong with using loops - really it's all about the end result and the path you take to get there

who cares if you use a loop from a sample CD, big deal if your jam is hot.

At the end of the day if the beats are smoking and you're happy with the results don't think twice about it.

xactly!! using loops can also be very educational too, in makin your own beats as u become naturally focused on what sounds good or bad..u know inspiration

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:59 am

pulsoc wrote:Well I better like it or I am gonna rag yer theorizing ass out of this forum.

well, even if its completely rubbish - everything I said remains true. all the more true that I'd rather be 'bad' at what I do, instead of using loops. Until I am 'good' at what I do.

maybe you dont understand the things I said - you seem to have this idea that I'm proclaiming musicial excellence lies in not using loops. All I said was that you're cheating yourself out of the learning journey of how to make your own grooves by getting into a habit of using prefab loops, and then I explained that in finer detail for mostly your benefit...cos you didnt seem to get it. and still dont seem to get it...

anyways, stay tuned for something b0uncy.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:25 pm

dj superflat wrote:ok, just to get a rise out of the drummers here, can you really call what most drummers do in a band anything more creative than picking what loop to play? ever since a certain kind of inventive drumming went out of style (post police? post early 80s? whatever), most drummers just play a loop. and if you're really writing the songs for a band, you come in and hum what you want from the drummer anyway. so using a drum loop, particularly to get you started or in addition to drums you play on impulse or whatever seems like a no brainer....

You must be joking me. That or you've never played with (or heard?) a good drummer. good/great drummers certainly do not just "play" loops, sure, most pop/rock/hip hop material has a repetitive beat, but what makes a great drummer is the nuances, dynamics, and fills--that's why they'll never be fully replaced be programmed beats. Another huge part of a great drummer is their sense of time, and where they place the beats--in funk the drummer is often on top of the beat, in reggae a bit behind the beat--great drummers can internalize a steady "click" in their head, then push and pull with that click to suit the music without speeding up or slowing down. As a bassist who's played with scores of drummers in a lot of varied projects, I can tell you that is what seperates great drummers from good ones--the guys that can play ahead of or behind the beat to suit the musical style but not lose the tempo are the shit, and make bass playing oh so much fun. Go listen to Billy Cobham, Brian Blade, Tony Williams, Max Roack, hell even Carter Beauford and tell me they're playing loops and that they could easily be replaced by programmed beats

Even a lot of great hip hop and electronica music use breakbeats from jazz and soul albums because real drummers and real drums sound great. Even though they loop these beats, the humanness of the playing and the sound of the drums are something it is hard to capture when programming beats.

Ryan

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:13 pm

hear hear! or is it here here?

anyways, ya...listen to some jazz drummers, man alot of jazz goes way beyond what people can even 'program' today. I try and imagine the same music being played through synths instead of acoustic instruments, and I hear great electronic music, like some of the percussive stuff venetian snares can program, or some aphex twin tunes...

jazz is f-ing sweet, and they do that shit LIVE to boot.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:19 pm

ILTK wrote:And it has to be homegrown hydro, under no less than a 400watt HPS, preferrably a strain you backcrossed back to its progeny yourself

backcrossed to its progeny ? ...you mean, breed the plant with its mother or something along those lines ?

pulsoc · Post by **pulsoc** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:20 pm

b0unce wrote:
pulsoc wrote:Well I better like it or I am gonna rag yer theorizing ass out of this forum.
well, even if its completely rubbish - everything I said remains true. all the more true that I'd rather be 'bad' at what I do, instead of using loops. Until I am 'good' at what I do.

maybe you dont understand the things I said - you seem to have this idea that I'm proclaiming musicial excellence lies in not using loops. All I said was that you're cheating yourself out of the learning journey of how to make your own grooves by getting into a habit of using prefab loops, and then I explained that in finer detail for mostly your benefit...cos you didnt seem to get it. and still dont seem to get it...

anyways, stay tuned for something b0uncy.

I understand what you're saying, what I object to is your "it's my way or the highway" bullshit superiority complex. I want to hear what you are doing because I think that using loops does NOT necessarily stunt musical growth. Again, I offer myself as a case in point - and in fact, I think I will finish a little track I have been doing with 4 instances of operator to show that even while using loops I have learned a shitload about NOT using loops. In other words, using loops to some degree or another does not exclude the possibility of gaining musical knowledge. Do YOU follow?

As for your "ipso facto" argument of ass-umptions, I ask for empirical evidence to affirm the theory, as I believe I can offer evidence to the contrary.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:51 pm

pulsoc wrote: I understand what you're saying, what I object to is your "it's my way or the highway" bullshit superiority complex.

thats a figment of your fevered imagination, all I've done is stated my thoughts on the matter - and addressed the people who questioned me. theres no 'its my way or the highway' bullshit, I'm sure I've made at least two disclaimers to that affect.

pulsoc wrote: I want to hear what you are doing because I think that using loops does NOT necessarily stunt musical growth.

it may not stunt the whole process, but it certainly stunts some of it. How can you not see that? Jesus christ (pbuh), most of us have already stated 'do what you like' , but that doesnt mean close your eyes. If you cant see how you are robbing yourself of a learning process by relying on loops, well fine...but save your accusations at least. I'm stating my thoughts on the subject, and you are engaging me in debate because of what I think, saying I'm wrong, becoming abusive & inflamatory, calling me a troll...and yet I've already said you can do what you like. you just have a problem with my standards/ideals and you keep picking on it.

pulsoc wrote: As for your "ipso facto" argument of ass-umptions, I ask for empirical evidence to affirm the theory, as I believe I can offer evidence to the contrary.

lol - here we go again - you want me to produce evidence i.e. a track to 'prove' my theory. Its not a theory that can be proven or disproved, its a basic standard i.e. using loops sucks because its not your creation - and you learn less. So what will one of my original tracks prove ? It seems you cant get this notion of musical excellence out of your head, because thats not what it comes down to. If you make a 'hot jam' using pre-fab loops+some of your own stuff, and I make a 100% original 'not-so-hot jam' - you think my theory is 'untrue' because your jam is better ? because I've not been talking about quality, I've been talking about learning. All it will prove if my track is shit, and your loop-ridden one is good - is that I have more to learn, my 'theory' is still water tight - and if I stick to it , over -TIME- i will get better - or I could use loops my whole life, have a 'hot jam' now...but be dependent on loops to keep it up, and learn less over time. You think by studying something you are a master from day one? Of course you can seem like a master if all you're doing is cut-and-pasting, and I will seem like a dumbass cos I'm still studying, so should we follow your idea and lets everyone just cut-and-paste and look like masters (of other people's knowledge/studies), or study and wear our ignorance on our sleeve until we reach our own plateux of excellence, and take pride in the rewards of our efforts ?

has my message fuckin sunk in yet, you petulant nonce.

ILTK · Post by **ILTK** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:16 pm

b0unce wrote:
ILTK wrote:And it has to be homegrown hydro, under no less than a 400watt HPS, preferrably a strain you backcrossed back to its progeny yourself
backcrossed to its progeny ? ...you mean, breed the plant with its mother or something along those lines ?

It's basically a technique used to breed plants back to it's parent to stabilize a hybrid strain that has traits you like but is not true breeding, so it will eventually generate the same result and not vary wildly everytime you grow it. Very fascinating subject of genetics. Good article here ( May cause headaches ) : Gregor Mendel and breeding

pulsoc · Post by **pulsoc** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:18 pm

b0unce wrote:
pulsoc wrote: I understand what you're saying, what I object to is your "it's my way or the highway" bullshit superiority complex.
thats a figment of your fevered imagination, all I've done is stated my thoughts on the matter - and addressed the people who questioned me. theres no 'its my way or the highway' bullshit, I'm sure I've made at least two disclaimers to that affect.

pulsoc wrote: I want to hear what you are doing because I think that using loops does NOT necessarily stunt musical growth.
it may not stunt the whole process, but it certainly stunts some of it. How can you not see that? Jesus christ (pbuh), most of us have already stated 'do what you like' , but that doesnt mean close your eyes. If you cant see how you are robbing yourself of a learning process by relying on loops, well fine...but save your accusations at least. I'm stating my thoughts on the subject, and you are engaging me in debate because of what I think, saying I'm wrong, becoming abusive & inflamatory, calling me a troll...and yet I've already said you can do what you like. you just have a problem with my standards/ideals and you keep picking on it.

pulsoc wrote: As for your "ipso facto" argument of ass-umptions, I ask for empirical evidence to affirm the theory, as I believe I can offer evidence to the contrary.
lol - here we go again - you want me to produce evidence i.e. a track to 'prove' my theory. Its not a theory that can be proven or disproved, its a basic standard i.e. using loops sucks because its not your creation - and you learn less. So what will one of my original tracks prove ? It seems you cant get this notion of musical excellence out of your head, because thats not what it comes down to. If you make a 'hot jam' using pre-fab loops+some of your own stuff, and I make a 100% original 'not-so-hot jam' - you think my theory is 'untrue' because your jam is better ? because I've not been talking about quality, I've been talking about learning. All it will prove if my track is shit, and your loop-ridden one is good - is that I have more to learn, my 'theory' is still water tight - and if I stick to it , over -TIME- i will get better - or I could use loops my whole life, have a 'hot jam' now...but be dependent on loops to keep it up, and learn less over time. You think by studying something you are a master from day one? Of course you can seem like a master if all you're doing is cut-and-pasting, and I will seem like a dumbass cos I'm still studying, so should we follow your idea and lets everyone just cut-and-paste and look like masters (of other people's knowledge/studies), or study and wear our ignorance on our sleeve until we reach our own plateux of excellence, and take pride in the rewards of our efforts ?

has my message fuckin sunk in yet, you petulant nonce.

When did you start "studying" my friend?