Loops and guilt

[djadonis206]

B0unce it would help if you could back up your opinion. Why should anyone take advice or even give you the time of day regarding loops or no loops when you can't even program a simple beat worth anything

Should I listen to B0unce <--- some name on a message board who has nothing to show for his hundred or so posts and half the shit he talks

or umm I don't know pick a name out of a hat:

Machinate <--- his opinion I respect

Adam Jay <--- he's cool but he has a basset hound and you know what they say about people who have basset hounds syke <---> he may or may not remember but when I was getting serious about making beats I sent him PM's asking how how how

Dave Aude <---- i think his music speaks for itself and he uses loops

Dan <---- don't really need to say much there, loops yes but his concepts for music using zippers, and phones and animals to make jams

Dave Armstrong <--------- loops and is probably one of the best funky house producers

blah blah blah

or I could listen to B0unce - some guy / or girl on some message board who has yet to show and prove anything

and if all you have is some half assed beat who gives a fuck, we're glad you're on the journey to who knows where, but if your music's weak, you're theories have no proof and you constantly belittle people who don't agree with you then you really are the BIGGEST DOUCH IN THE UNIVERSE

we can't make you go away so we have to learn to live with an idiot <---> we're getting by in the US with an Idiot for a president so I guess we can deal with a hack of a troll idiot on the Ableton Forum

Step up or shut up B0unce!


edit: I think you're limiting yourself by not asking questions and trying new things - if you don't use loops try it if you do tryi ti with out - if you want to know how to do something ask - don't pretend you're on some vision quest - you're trying to make the best music you can at the moment I am and I'm not afraid to ask, try new shit and keep an open mind to anything anyone with at least this () much more itelligence than B0unce or Henry or whatever he's calling himself this week

[ILTK]

Common sense need to be backed up by proff now?

looool

btw where did b0unce belittle anyone that didn't start calling him names first?

Or do you feel 'belittled' because someone said that using loops deprived you of the knowledge required to create them yourself? if so I'd work on that, it's called an inferiority complex.

[djadonis206]

Common sense need to be backed up by proff now?

looool

Or do you feel 'belittled' because someone said that using loops deprived you of the knowledge required to create them yourself? if so I'd work on that, it's called an inferiority complex.

What's the common sense he's talking about?

and nah - I don't feel belittled by the statement "using loops deprived you of the knowledge required to create them yourself?"

cause I could care less what someone I don't respect says - if say Dan was like "ugh, you use loops that's weak." I'd rethink my approach - but see I respect what he's done, who he is and the music he makes

If Monolake said that I'd be like cool, whatever - I don't know him and don't buy his music - no disrespect intended

If richie Hawtin said loops are depreiving you of blah blah blah - same thing, I'd be like whatever - same, no distrespect intended

If Donald said it I'd be like "Ok, maybe I should rethink that" because I respect who he is, what he's done etc etc

B0unce is none of the above so I'm kind of like blank on that one

[ILTK]

See, I don't get that, why do you need to respect people to see common sense, easily verifyable concepts?

"Using loops deprives you of the knowledge you could gain by creating them yourself"

No respect needed to see that this is true is there? no malice in that statement either right? but for some people it hits a nerve for some reason.

And doing something just because someone you look up to is saying you should do it, well I don't even know where to begin with that one, I do things because I think they are a good idea, after doing my own research, not just because someone I feel affinity towards tells me to, if someone whos work I admire tells me to do something I think is idiotic I will laugh at them and tell them it's stupid, just like I would laugh at any other person saying the same.

[djadonis206]

See, I don't get that, why do you need to respect people to see common sense, easily verifyable concepts?

"Using loops deprives you of the knowledge you could gain by creating them yourself"

No respect needed to see that this is true is there? no malice in that statement either right? but for some people it hits a nerve for some reason.

And doing something just because someone you look up to is saying you should do it, well I don't even know where to begin with that one, I do things because I think they are a good idea, after doing my own research, not just because someone I feel affinity towards tells me to, if someone whos work I admire tells me to do something I think is idiotic I will laugh at them and tell them it's stupid, just like I would laugh at any other person saying the same.

Well that's where we go our seperate ways

[polyslax]

Well, looks like we have ourselves a little debate going on here… so I’ll throw my 2 cents in.

I don’t have a problem with people using loops. I think some absolute genius can be worked with any kind of sound, homegrown or off the shelf. Some people use the odd loop… mangled, processed or otherwise as a kind of spice or inspirational starting point, others may simply be into assembling pieces from a construction kit. Whatever, I’m not here to pass judgement on the process, just to listen to the music. I think a lot of the equipment and techniques used today would be regarded as abominations by musicians of the past. Arpeggiators, quantizing, samples, auto tuners, overdubs, random patch/note generators, midi groove files, sample/loop playback synths such as Stylus RMX etc. It’s all relative, and I think anything that allows people to be creative and express themselves is a good thing.

I don't use loops, btw. I love making music and half the fun for me is doing it from scratch, but I'm totally open to others using whatever suits them.

[quandry]

I haven't read through all of this, but I gots to agree with ILTK and bounce's first post. If you dj or use loops, thats fine, at least you're making music and if you're on these boards you are using some fun software. That said, "Using loops deprives you of the knowledge you could gain by creating them yourself" is on-point, and I think unarguable.

Let's compare to other creative mediums--using loops other people made is like painting by numbers, going to one of those pottery places and glazing a blank white pot someone else made, putting together some furniture from ikea (okay, that's a stretch), or stitching together a few different house plans to come up with a different house. The end result can be cool, and contains some input from you, but it is not all yours, and the skill and knowledge used to make the original loops/painting/pottery/bookcase/house plan is not learned by you, just taken advantage of.

Don't get me wrong, using loops and finding ways to put them together is a good way to learn how to mix, compose, and even figure out what beats/basslines/melodies sound good to your ear and why. That said, using loops someone else made in a vacuum to flush out your song can never compare to a part that you create specifically for that song. Great musical compositions are great because each and every part was carefully crafted to fit with the other parts; rthymically, harmonically, melodically. Using pre-canned loops can never get you to this level of composition, with each part consciously crafted to fit with and groove off of the other parts.

At the very least, I would think that people really interested and passionate about creating their own music would strive to learn how to create each and every part, as both a process of learning and production, as well as to reach a level where you can make the music you want to hear, the music in your head. Using pre-canned loops might help you along this path, but I would hope that most of us strive to make it all ourselves rather than painting by numbers.

Ryan

[SubFunk]

iltk wrote:

"Using loops deprives you of the knowledge you could gain by creating them yourself"

No respect needed to see that this is true is there?

hmmm... very interesting.

why this sort of debate?

the statement:

"Using loops deprives you of the knowledge you could gain by creating them yourself"

is in my eyes certainly true, very true, but it does NOT say that people who do use loops, even if it is exclusively are not capable of making good music!

so why feeling attacked??? i don't understand, and yes in my eyes, some one who actually creates everything from scratch himself earns and deserves higher respect from myself and many others, because those people are needed, absolut needed!, otherwise NO one would be able to use their creations!
but that certainly does not mean, that people who use those creations (in this case we are talking about loops) are not able to throw in their own creativity in order to make good music.
and i can't find bounce said anything like that.

that reminds me on those young boys who love hip hop, they really think it's a 100% modern form of music (and many other modern forms of music, e.g. detroit techno), that in fact it would not be alive without the excistence of old soul and fun! or other "real" and "pure" creations, sampled to death, frustrates me! (eh not the fact that the 'modern' stuff is sampled, but the lack of knowledge where it's coming from)

it's all about the music, but there are creators and re-creators.

1,
2,

period

[djadonis206]

So if you know how to program your own drums and compress eq and effect them so those drums become your loop and you still choose to use loops off records then where does that leave you?
What does that say about a person.

FYI I know how to make my own loops from scratch I choose not to because it's boring to me and somewhat time consuming for me - I'd rather get what I need off of a record and get on with the rest of the song

[djadonis206]

I've said like 43 thousand times this is a conversation only nerds with 1500+ posts on a internet chat room can talk about because

at the end of the day when someones in their car or on the dance floor I don't think it matters to them how the fuck the song got there, if it was made with a cracked copy of fruityloops, used loops from Big Fish Audios whole library and blatantly jacked vocals from some dead black guy from the 70's

If it's jam, it's a jam perod <---- I tend to subscribe to that statement

and most dj's I know don't hate on JAMZZZZ - no matter how illegal, lacking knowledge it is - if it cracks it cracks - who gives a fuck except for well maybe you I guess

[quandry]

So if you know how to program your own drums and compress eq and effect them so those drums become your loop and you still choose to use loops off records then where does that leave you?
What does that say about a person....

I guess this is part of what I was saying in my response to the drummer comment--what makes a great drummer, bassist, guitarist, or band is that there are not loops, that even with repetitive parts that each instrumentalists finds ways to variate their part, be it with dynamics, fills, changing the part slightly, etc. Listen to bassists like James Jamerson (motown), or drummers like Steve Gadd and you can get a sense of what I'm talking about--the songs may often have repetitive parts, but not loops at all. the parts have a wonderful sense of linear flow and storytelling that really make the music come alive in ways that repetitive loops simply can't. its different, that doesn't mean loops are bad, but a song played in whole by a great drummer is very different than a few drum loops.

[SubFunk]

hey adonis, i guess you have difficulties to read or understand propperly, otherwise you would not need to take the defense as there is no offense going on.

cheers

subfunk aka axel junkuhn.


p.s maybee to much techno? hey just kidding, just kidding!!

[quandry]

I've said like 43 thousand times this is a conversation only nerds with 1500+ posts on a internet chat room can talk about because

at the end of the day when someones in their car or on the dance floor I don't think it matters to them how the fuck the song got there, if it was made with a cracked copy of fruityloops, used loops from Big Fish Audios whole library and blatantly jacked vocals from some dead black guy from the 70's

If it's jam, it's a jam perod <---- I tend to subscribe to that statement

and most dj's I know don't hate on JAMZZZZ - no matter how illegal, lacking knowledge it is - if it cracks it cracks - who gives a fuck except for well maybe you I guess

differences of opinion are what make the world go round. I guess people coming at music from the dj side of things have similar sentiments to you, with the bottom line being to move people on a dance floor. people coming from a musician background like me, who may be classically or jazz trained on an instrument, might care more about the nuances of compostition, harmony, rthymic relationships, and melodies. They might be more inclined to want to create something of their own because they can hear it in their head, or because they came up with a fun bassline and want to flush it out into a song with complimentary parts. And, of course, most stuff has been played before, and even the greats on any given instrument are heavily influenced by their predicessors and teachers, their heros.

But there is a difference between being influenced by something and by just sampling it. Its not to say that one is better than the other, or that one takes more talent, but it is different. collage artists take a bunch or different random things and make art, much like great dj's and producers like DJ Shadow or 9th Wonder dig through the crates and figure out things that mesh well together to make a new song out of old stuff--that takes skills, time, and a great ear.

I guess you are right--if it jams it jams, and who cares how it was made, right?--good music is good music, and there are many ways to approach it.

[SubFunk]

word!

[djadonis206]

Sorry if I come off defence or offensive

I'm not against the idea that you're deprieving yourself of something by not learning how to program a beat from scratch

I just don't subscribe to it - i think if you want to make a certain kind of music for a certain audience then it would behoove you to talk to the people who have had success in that field - take what you need and leave the rest

I don't think sitting in your bedroom banging your head on the keyboard day in and day out because you can't get that kick drum right is very conducive to learning anything

with that said - as I stated a few back if you go and ask someone how they did that and they said well I just jacked it and a light went off in your head "it doesn't have to be any harder then it already is" run with it.

I don't have an opinion on what people should do with their music - it's yours if sampling cow farts and mashing them up into a bass line is your thing more power to you

and yes I do know how to program a beat from scratch