Conspiracy theorists combat this!

[Machinesworking]

that, is where you fall your face sir. You can't PROVE that the US government wasn't involved in the attacks, or that they didn't just let it happen, in fact you didn't even try to disavow ANY of my questions...... There are plenty of holes in the "official" story, yet you don't bother questioning that.

No, this where the conspiracy theorists fall down. It is their responsibility to prove that there was a conspiracy, not mine to prove that there WASN'T. I believe we were attacked, without material warning, on 9/11 by islamic fundamentalist terrorists and the towers fell down on their own accord after being struck by jets and the pentagon was struck by a passenger jet as well.

Did you miss my witch analogy on the logic you present?

How can I prove a negative? How can I prove to anyone that there wasn't a conspiracy without a doubt? I cannot. But that's not my responsibility. I have ample proof of my position (stated above).

Yet the question remains, why do you, and so many others (who of course I'm not asking you to reply for! ), continue to claim that NOTHING happened that wasn't the party line?
I'm not trying to PROVE anything, I'm simply saying that the official story is full of holes, and outrageous misleading "truths", like the ridiculous notion that the worlds best air force couldn't scramble a single, large on the radar, slow, jet out of four? Yet I get the impression that it's not within your capabilities to add up the overwhelming amount of evidence, (not theory), that somebody knew something was going on.
I don't hold out that the answers are clear, just that the evidence that something is rotten with the official line is clear. That, is where I disagree with you. You can prove that planes hit a building, that there was a terrorist link, that we were attacked, sure, but you can't disprove holes in the official party line, they still exist. In spite of it all, it's still a mystery.

The government isn't necessarily innocent until proven guilty, it's supposed to be a representation of the people. If all you are doing is trying to stir up conspiracy theorists, and hold out that there is not enough circumstantial evidence to hang the government, then why? What's the point? Another thing, the administration and the government in many ways are two separate things, at the least, and both are made up of thousands of individuals. Why hold the whole of the United States on trial as a single entity?

I'm not disagreeing that it's up to the conspiracy theorists to prove their theory etc. but I do disagree that it should be laughed at etc. that totally ignores the preponderance of circumstantial evidence that leads people to wild conjecture in the first place, and makes the whole country look bad IMO.

I would like to know why we couldn't scramble four slow moving jets with the best fighter planes on the planet at our disposal, I would like to know why so many CIA, FBI, and NSA agents that were constantly badgering their superiors prior to 911were ignored or fired, I would like to know why the Bin Ladin family members were escorted out of the country with no questioning period etc. Sorry, but with this level of attack, the rich can't be immune to basic interrogation protocol when dealing with religious fundamentalists etc.
I would like to know why the CIA was badgered into going along with the WMD story when they didn't think Iraq had any? Why did the current administration want to war with Iraq so badly they were willing to put up with worldwide damnation, and possible public backlash?

Too many things don't add up, that's all.
Not to stir this in the wrong direction, but lately we have seen many public trials in the USA where a person with the money to buy the best lawyers gets away with murder, molestation, corporate crime, you name it. The evidence is there, yet the sad truth is it's not enough for a solid conviction when countered by these high paid lawyers....
Take OJ for example, sorry to ruffle any feathers, but it's pretty obvious he was implicit in the murders, yet his lawyers knew enough to make sure that not a single jury member was educated enough to know how damming DNA evidence is.
Maybe he didn't kill them himself, we will never know now, it's possible he owed some mafia types money etc. yet it's simply impossible for me to think he's totally innocent in the murders. That's how I feel about the administration, and governments handling of 911.

[robtronik]

Deadly KungFU and Machinesworking, as always very well put.

Personally, it seemed clear from the word go to me it was all orchestrated.

I think 9/11 was orchestrated, but not by Islamic fundamentalists (although they could well be the well groomed footsoldiers, drones or whatever), or americans, or republicans, or neo-cons, or evangelicl christians or whatever face there is at the front of it.

It was orchestrated by the wealthy powerholders of Earth - who are beyond citizenship and nationality - Bush is amongst them, but so was Kerry and probably Osama Bin Laden (like the rest of the Bin Ladens).

The reality none of us knows shit about any of this. All we can do is trust gut feelings, and I'm with those who get the feeling it all stinks.

And this is a case in point. We don't know, you only suspect, but then it is still "clear" to most of you that it was conspiratorial.

This is the bias that I'm poking at. Its so very clear to those of us who don't have such an extreme bias and realize that government is like a poorly run company - slow moving, not efficient, certainly not able to keep secrets, and yet it is capable (through its leaders) to enact such complex plan without any trace? Possible? Yes, but only in the way that an asteroid is going to wipe the human race off the planet in the next 10 years. -> koo koo probability - If I may say so.

the point above in the paragraph above is also part of my general observation about bias against the U.S. in my post above too.

rob.

[robtronik]

And finally, some one over at DIGG stated this pretty well. He attacks the framework itself for the possibility of a conspiracy:

Were it possible for such a large and grandiose operation to be undertaken without the direct cooperation and involvement of a wide range of governmental agencies, military and civil, I would certainly agree with you. However, operations of that scale do not just come together by themselves. Even if there are persons at the top directing the operation, you still need boots on the ground. People directing fighters not to take off, people to set targeting information into the missile, to set it up and launch it, people to rig hidden explosives, people to hide or relocate hundreds of body parts, people to take notes, organize meetings, handle logistics. People to commit suicide. There are few things, short of the prospect of 72 virgins in need of deflowering, that will induce people to perform the final item, and for the others, people are people and have consciences and regrets that money can only delay. Maybe the power-hungry capitalist 'bayonet a baby for breakfast' bastards at the top don't feel that way, but if you have enough conspirators, sooner or later some of them are going to turn. I spoke specifically about the inevitable military element in such a supposed group, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that any Naval Academy grad, especially an old-school one such as would be in high government, would never murder a dozen or so of his classmates. The same goes for the other academies, for the officer corps in general, and also for the American military. The moral point aside, an organization, or the sub-organizations within it, cannot be both cleverer than clever, capable of pulling off such an operation and the subsequent cover-up, and also be incompetent, as has frequently been asserted as of late. If portions of the government were clever enough to orchestrate 911 and cover it up with the motive of war, we would have Afghanistan and Iraq as completely cowed colonies three years ago. Incidentally, if it's all about oil, why the fuck did we attack Afghanistan first? If I may quote the CIA's world fact book (nothing but lies, I know "Despite the progress of the past few years, Afghanistan remains extremely poor, landlocked, and highly dependent on foreign aid, farming, and trade with neighboring countries." Doesn't really add up. Anyway.

the organization of such an effort would not hold.

rob.

[robtronik]

more food for thought on the loose change video:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

rob.

[robtronik]

More:

http://www.911myths.com/

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

that should help you guys counter balance your bent towards "clear" conspiracy.

rob.

[Machinesworking]

Gee? So I can just throw out other sources then?

http://www.standdown.net/

More about NORAD, and the lack of efficient fighter coverage from the most powerful air force on the planet. Flying towards suicide highjackers at 25% speed....

[ethios4]

Thanks for the links Rob

[forge]

Deadly KungFU and Machinesworking, as always very well put.

Personally, it seemed clear from the word go to me it was all orchestrated.

I think 9/11 was orchestrated, but not by Islamic fundamentalists (although they could well be the well groomed footsoldiers, drones or whatever), or americans, or republicans, or neo-cons, or evangelicl christians or whatever face there is at the front of it.

It was orchestrated by the wealthy powerholders of Earth - who are beyond citizenship and nationality - Bush is amongst them, but so was Kerry and probably Osama Bin Laden (like the rest of the Bin Ladens).

The reality none of us knows shit about any of this. All we can do is trust gut feelings, and I'm with those who get the feeling it all stinks.

And this is a case in point. We don't know, you only suspect, but then it is still "clear" to most of you that it was conspiratorial.

This is the bias that I'm poking at. Its so very clear to those of us who don't have such an extreme bias and realize that government is like a poorly run company - slow moving, not efficient, certainly not able to keep secrets, and yet it is capable (through its leaders) to enact such complex plan without any trace? Possible? Yes, but only in the way that an asteroid is going to wipe the human race off the planet in the next 10 years. -> koo koo probability - If I may say so.

the point above in the paragraph above is also part of my general observation about bias against the U.S. in my post above too.

rob.

I dont know, I think your apraisal of the US government there must be a tad naive - that itt's a poorly run company that cant keep a secret?

shit man they have more money than sense - I think it's pretty safe to assume the CIA would have their shit together to a pretty large extent by now.

Just think about what it means to have practically unlimited resources when you are employing secret services - their power must know no bounds.

Just for one angle watch the "century of the self" BBC 4 part documentary that was posted here recently - not related in topic but all about how much governments these days employ tried and tested Psychological techniques to achieve their aims. That's just the actual out in the open goevernment - they practically admit it these days - it's certainly far from secret.

The CIA has had practically infinite resources for way long enough to pick the cream of effective psychology and very cleverly use it to control and manipulate - and that's just in those departments, then you'd have the departments that would get down on the ground and physically interfere with goings on out in the world - like the ones handing out satelite postions during the Iran/Iraq war (that an Iranian I know who fought in it told me about)

I dont think it would be hard for them to get involved with groups like Al Qaeda or whatever they want to call it and "suggest" something like 9/11 - groom them and make it so they think they're doing it for Allah or whatever - I think they could have easily "willed" it to happen and helped it along. Even the guys on the plane wouldnt know every dealing or conversation Osama or whoever their leader was had. How do we or they know he was not involved with the said "powers that be "

of course this is all speculation, but seriously this idealistic view of the big happy if slightly clumsy mothering government that only wants what's best for everybody is pretty naive.

Of course power corrupts any humans. And of course absolute power corrupts absolutely. And of course there are agents within governments whose sole purpose is to excerpt that power by any means neccessary.

Seriously man, like I said before, your mistake is assuming that people that powerful have national interests at heart - or that they even remotely give a flying fuck about the little people. God most of government policy practically rubs your nose in it - it's blatant their interests are squarely aimed at big business and they only do what they have to for the little people to get re-elected.

Then you only need to look a short way into the Bush family to see just how high up they come from. Bush Snr was director of the CIA - he would have known more of the shady goings on than most of the people on the planet. And they are very, very wealthy people. Do you think they really give a crap about fireman Joe the hero who got killed on 9/11? I very much doubt it.

I wouldnt put it past the "powers that be" at all to kill a couple of thousand people in NY if it would give them a mandate to totally reshape the modern world to their advantage. How else would they have got away with this Iraq invasion? they wouldnt have.

[forge]

I just thought I'd re-post this one point - it seems alot of the debate here is centered around missiles instead of planes - or the government actually carrying out the attacks, but all that aside,

I dont think it would be hard for them to get involved with groups like Al Qaeda or whatever they want to call it and "suggest" something like 9/11 - groom them and make it so they think they're doing it for Allah or whatever - I think they could have easily "willed" it to happen and helped it along. Even the guys on the plane wouldnt know every dealing or conversation Osama or whoever their leader was had. How do we or they know he was not involved with the said "powers that be "


I actually think the most damning case is not about the attacks, but the motives and what they did after the event. When history looks back in 30 years time it will look pretty clear how contrived it all was.

[robtronik]

Deadly KungFU and Machinesworking, as always very well put.

Personally, it seemed clear from the word go to me it was all orchestrated.

I think 9/11 was orchestrated, but not by Islamic fundamentalists (although they could well be the well groomed footsoldiers, drones or whatever), or americans, or republicans, or neo-cons, or evangelicl christians or whatever face there is at the front of it.

It was orchestrated by the wealthy powerholders of Earth - who are beyond citizenship and nationality - Bush is amongst them, but so was Kerry and probably Osama Bin Laden (like the rest of the Bin Ladens).

The reality none of us knows shit about any of this. All we can do is trust gut feelings, and I'm with those who get the feeling it all stinks.

And this is a case in point. We don't know, you only suspect, but then it is still "clear" to most of you that it was conspiratorial.

This is the bias that I'm poking at. Its so very clear to those of us who don't have such an extreme bias and realize that government is like a poorly run company - slow moving, not efficient, certainly not able to keep secrets, and yet it is capable (through its leaders) to enact such complex plan without any trace? Possible? Yes, but only in the way that an asteroid is going to wipe the human race off the planet in the next 10 years. -> koo koo probability - If I may say so.

the point above in the paragraph above is also part of my general observation about bias against the U.S. in my post above too.

rob.

I dont know, I think your apraisal of the US government there must be a tad naive - that itt's a poorly run company that cant keep a secret?

shit man they have more money than sense - I think it's pretty safe to assume the CIA would have their shit together to a pretty large extent by now.

Just think about what it means to have practically unlimited resources when you are employing secret services - their power must know no bounds.

Just for one angle watch the "century of the self" BBC 4 part documentary that was posted here recently - not related in topic but all about how much governments these days employ tried and tested Psychological techniques to achieve their aims. That's just the actual out in the open goevernment - they practically admit it these days - it's certainly far from secret.

The CIA has had practically infinite resources for way long enough to pick the cream of effective psychology and very cleverly use it to control and manipulate - and that's just in those departments, then you'd have the departments that would get down on the ground and physically interfere with goings on out in the world - like the ones handing out satelite postions during the Iran/Iraq war (that an Iranian I know who fought in it told me about)

I dont think it would be hard for them to get involved with groups like Al Qaeda or whatever they want to call it and "suggest" something like 9/11 - groom them and make it so they think they're doing it for Allah or whatever - I think they could have easily "willed" it to happen and helped it along. Even the guys on the plane wouldnt know every dealing or conversation Osama or whoever their leader was had. How do we or they know he was not involved with the said "powers that be "

of course this is all speculation, but seriously this idealistic view of the big happy if slightly clumsy mothering government that only wants what's best for everybody is pretty naive.

Of course power corrupts any humans. And of course absolute power corrupts absolutely. And of course there are agents within governments whose sole purpose is to excerpt that power by any means neccessary.

Seriously man, like I said before, your mistake is assuming that people that powerful have national interests at heart - or that they even remotely give a flying fuck about the little people. God most of government policy practically rubs your nose in it - it's blatant their interests are squarely aimed at big business and they only do what they have to for the little people to get re-elected.

Then you only need to look a short way into the Bush family to see just how high up they come from. Bush Snr was director of the CIA - he would have known more of the shady goings on than most of the people on the planet. And they are very, very wealthy people. Do you think they really give a crap about fireman Joe the hero who got killed on 9/11? I very much doubt it.

I wouldnt put it past the "powers that be" at all to kill a couple of thousand people in NY if it would give them a mandate to totally reshape the modern world to their advantage. How else would they have got away with this Iraq invasion? they wouldnt have.

dude, the source of leaks about our supposed detention centers, wiretapping, and even the NSA collection of phone numbers are all from our intelligence agencies.

And then somehow you think that they can keep blowing up the towers or shooting a missle at the pentagon secret?

Not even remotely possible. Do you keep up with news? It should be very apparent that our intelligence agencies can't keep quiet about smaller things, much less HUGE one's like a supposed 9/11 conspiracy. Just an FYI.

rob.

[Machinesworking]

I don't know Forge, I seriously doubt that the administration were totally implicit, it's possible, but unlikely. What is more likely, and easy to ascertain from the spotty evidence pointing towards some sort of awareness that something was brewing is that some elements higher up in the government knew that something was going to happen around 9/11 and decided that the best way to wake up the american public to what they perceive as a threat ( peak oil, middle east fundamentalism etc.), would be to do nothing, and actually sort of nudge it towards happening.
You know, stop CIA, NSA, and FBI agents from doing their job, disregarding the warning signs that Al Q was planning something big, dropping the number of available fighter planes in US skies to 14, and generally allowing it to happen. Now I seriously don't think they had any idea that the attacks would be as successful as they were. I don't think they thought very many people would die.
This also goes a long way towards explaining why there isn't a sign of many whistle blowers yet, except the CIA, NSA and FBI agents that stated they tried to warn the government, yet were ignored. Just a few near the top would know, and when investigations are undertaken, at the orders of the few at top......

One thing I think people forget when pointing fingers at hawkish types, is that even the most war like leader does not think what they are doing is wrong, they think it's for the best. If you want to understand the enemy, you have to look at the reasons why they think what they do.
US politics as the most modern, and logical choice, and as fervent a belief in that as any communist government worker. Total ignorance to the fact that the rest of the western world is as free economically, and politically as the states.
Why not take Iraq and make it a democracy? Why not instal western businesses there and set up shop? In twenty years or less, the world will eat crow when they see how happy the Iraqis are.... It's insane to anybody outside the states, but to some here, it really seems like a great thing, and they just don't get why people are upset?

There's this robot guy here who certainly seems to believe that line of thinking, and he's obviously not unintelligent, yet I'm betting he believes we are doing what is best for Iraq.

To some a sweet subtle lie is much more tolerable than the bitter truth, and I don't direct that just at the right, the left would rather believe that the administration is evil, and that these people are cold blooded killers, yet that makes no sense. People want to believe that their actions are for the betterment of humanity as a whole, so if you disagree with what a person is doing, it's best to look at why they are doing it.

[Machinesworking]

dude, the source of leaks about our supposed detention centers, wiretapping, and even the NSA collection of phone numbers are all from our intelligence agencies.

And then somehow you think that they can keep blowing up the towers or shooting a missle at the pentagon secret?

Not even remotely possible. Do you keep up with news? It should be very apparent that our intelligence agencies can't keep quiet about smaller things, much less HUGE one's like a supposed 9/11 conspiracy. Just an FYI.

rob.

Sure, foot soldiers are likely to balk at breaking the law. Like I said in the post above though, I think if there was any complicity in the administration or government branches, it came from up high, and foot soldiers were/are unaware.

Also, the CIA's involvement in Iran was kept secret for 20 odd years, and that operation would require a broader group of agents than just not responding to repeated warnings of imminent terrorist attack. There are plenty of examples of situations where the CIA, and NSA kept their traps shut, until the information was declassified.
Don't underestimate our intelligence agencies, they definitely know how to keep a secret. Fortunately for the american public, some of them also tend to want to play by the book, and don't take kindly to constitutional violations of human rights.

[forge]

dude, the source of leaks about our supposed detention centers, wiretapping, and even the NSA collection of phone numbers are all from our intelligence agencies.

And then somehow you think that they can keep blowing up the towers or shooting a missle at the pentagon secret?

Not even remotely possible. Do you keep up with news? It should be very apparent that our intelligence agencies can't keep quiet about smaller things, much less HUGE one's like a supposed 9/11 conspiracy. Just an FYI.

rob.

Sure, foot soldiers are likely to balk at breaking the law. Like I said in the post above though, I think if there was any complicity in the administration or government branches, it came from up high, and foot soldiers were/are unaware.

Also, the CIA's involvement in Iran was kept secret for 20 odd years, and that operation would require a broader group of agents than just not responding to repeated warnings of imminent terrorist attack. There are plenty of examples of situations where the CIA, and NSA kept their traps shut, until the information was declassified.
Don't underestimate our intelligence agencies, they definitely know how to keep a secret. Fortunately for the american public, some of them also tend to want to play by the book, and don't take kindly to constitutional violations of human rights.

also, the CIA would be made up of alot of components - there are almost certainly intelligence agencies or arms of the CIA very few people know about - we here on a music software forum are talking about what we think we know about, but why the fuck would we know what really goes on in the deepest darkest hearts of intelligence/spy agenices or governments?

And Rob - watching "the news" is hardly akin to knowing anything - all that info has come from somewhere and like I said before info like "9/11 was masterminded by Al Qaeda" can only come from government sources because who the hell else would really know that? problem with a plane crashing into a building is there are no survivors to tell the tale.

No one except those involved will ever know.

The only thing I *suspect* is that there are vested interests who are on the side of invading Iraq who were players in 9/11

[pilcrow]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_new ... p?id=98805

[D DAS]

who's to say that's even bin ladens voice on that tape, i mean come on. bin laden never really even fessed up to 9-11. several months after the attacks a tape surfaced with someone saying he did the attacks, looked like bin laden but was it? sorry, they would have taken the glory for that the minute after it happened.

not very breaking news pilcrow