Alright, I'm with you. Bring on the MIDI sequencing...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:16 am

the iddea is to have a studio version of Live , fuly featured with recording , looping 'n soft midi abilities.
'n then we can have a performance version aimed to playing live sets including some midi looping and soft recording functions
it won't have to be another rewire ap. but a performance live version.
in that way< we'll have , our own Live3 , Live studio and Live Performance.
what do you think of it.
concerning VSTi i still believe we should have them on the input menu, not as an insert .

nosuch · Post by **nosuch** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 1:18 pm

Anonymous wrote:the iddea is to have a studio version of Live , fuly featured with recording , looping 'n soft midi abilities.
'n then we can have a performance version aimed to playing live sets including some midi looping and soft recording functions
it won't have to be another rewire ap. but a performance live version.
in that way< we'll have , our own Live3 , Live studio and Live Performance.
what do you think of it.
concerning VSTi i still believe we should have them on the input menu, not as an insert .

as long as this "studio version" has the same convenience for audio and midi live actually has for audio I'm with you.

why would you want vsti on the inputs - how would they be triggered?
would that mean two tracks for one instrument (one midi, one vsti)?
I like the way vsti are inserted in tracktion (and logic) - one track and the vsti as a filter - you can even bounce it to disk (freeze) as an audio track to save cpu.
but I would like to understand your concept so please describe...

regards

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:12 pm

In Logic the Instrument is an input on the object then it's output gets fed to fx in the channel strip... just as it would if it was on the Input dropdown in Live. Make a tracks MIDI Channel assignable, like logic, route MIDI to it, like logic, and this would now be playable as a 'live' instrument and captured into clips 'live' while keeping all that is already there, vst control/automation, intact. If the clips were expanded so that they could be MIDI also they could be used to trigger whatever Instrument is assigned to a track.

There are a gazzilion ways of implementing sequencing/editing etc etc. These two things, even the first one on it's own, would extend what is already there (the VST shell is already working with FX) in a way that would make Live EXTREMELY useful to people who want to use Live... wel, LIVE!!!

The guts for all of this is already there apart from the MIDI clips which I personally am not bothered about but would be useful for triggering... Live. Big changes like editing/sequencing etc mean we wait longer which is fine but what is already there can be expanded in very useful ways still. The beauty of Live is that it is trying, and succeeding in most ways, to be a live instrument, it's there on the box. There are enough sequencers/editors to sink a battle ship and they do things THEIR way which generally isn't with the focus on live performance. Their way doesn't work as a live instrument, you are always banging your head against the wall with one thing or another because it doesn't quite do what you want in a realtime composition environment.

Kudos to Ableton for "getting" what is needed in a live situation in the main. Sitting down editing note-lengths while perring at a laptop sceen on stage isn't one of them, that is either dealt with by what you have just played... live.. or prepared beforehand and triggered/etc. Be it audio or MIDI or a combination of both. In this case, so far, it's audio with MIDI being left to the chore of control.. which is what it was designed to do in the first place.

Beyond a point to many people you may as well record the gig beforehand on a CD and press play, some people want to start with a fairly blank sheet and a minimally prepared pallette.. start playing and see what comes out the other end. A framework for live experimentation mistakes, warts and all, they are part of a performance as well.

To be honest Nosuch and pre-empting your response here... I don't think if I sat here for the next 3 months trying to expalin how useful this would be to people wishing to control live from controllers such as MIDI wind instruments, MIDI guitar controllers.. etc etc I would get the point across. But in a live situation it would. Editing wouldn't, I can do that already. What I can't do in any host is play instruments.. live.. and record that into clips and trigger those mini-performances to build up a.. live.. compositon. Not without buying expensive hardware.

So, I'll leave it at that.. hopefully that makes a bit more sense but I suspect not. The last thing I personally need at this stage of the game is another f$^%$^n MIDI editor!! I would like something I can't do already preferably, which is where Live came into the equation in the first place

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:38 pm

And just to add to that. Ever used Touch Tracks in Logic? That is a VERY unerused and underestimated idea with quantisec triggering\gating of MIDI phrases\etc that woulb be perfect as an adjunct to the live audio capabilities in Live.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:03 pm

Re: Touch Tracks, heres a bit of a rant and a how-to on running TT in logic alongside LIVE:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

And yeah, just to reinforce - Leave out the editing features, just the ability to drop standard MIDI files onto a slot would be fine......

cheers
Paddy

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:11 am

Using Touch Tracks from Logic along with clips and VST Instruments would fit the Ableton Live paradigm beautifully. It would supplement elastic audio and phrase triggering making Live stand out even further from the field than it already is in this area.

Thank you Ableton for daring to think differently and provide a very expressive tool.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:47 pm

personnaly I think almost everybody got things right and wrong...

For those who still doubt about it, MIDI was, is and will stay a very useful and powerful Digital Instrument language. And Yes MIDI, as a language, is very light. But you must think more as a programmer on that topics than like a musician. The point is that if you want full editing MIDI and/or Audio features, code must be written... and believe me these code lines could be bigger than what you think it is. And where this lines will end up ? Into my RAM ? Personnaly I don't want them there, I mean on live gigs situation. A MIDI engine shouldn't be difficult to do, since it's almost all there already. Yes Live should be able to read MIDI files, load VSTis, etc. but I think MIDI editor should be external... and audio editor also.

Keep Live light and fast... that's my point. I like the idea of a kind of Live-studio. But it should be think more like a bundle rather than a single program. So everything you need would be there, when need them...

I want every megs of RAM working for me, not against me. And thats what Live offer me at this time, that's the only thing I don't to want to change.

***And I like the VSTi/input thing like in Logic, you load your VSTi and then you have one single MIDI-like track with all the processing of an audio track...

Jed · Post by **Jed** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:24 am

Amen to guest! One thing about Live right now - it does what it is supposed to. MANY other plugs and sequences don't. Or they do, then this changes, then this breaks, then this update changes this and...wtf. Like OSX - I'm just making the switch, and seeing so much functionality from OS9 gone....and this is often not difficult to implement, sometimes just a line or two of code in terminal to make the hack work. Could have easily been implemented. But no, because somehow in the world of pro audio and computing change/new features = progress. Bullshit! Many of the GUI changes in X seem to occur for the sake of accurring, and now we continue to see new OSX "features" being essentially OS9 functionality that was phased out!

Sorry, pardon my rant. I want VSTi's as much as or more than the next guy. But is using Bidule to do this putting one out so much? In fact, it offers so much on its own.

I don't know. I've lost years of my life to Logic and its often infuriating design. Whether inconsistent animation reading, fucked up environmental imports, smart snap (for those who never experienced this "feature", thank your lucky stars) or entire sections of code abandoned in limbo because the author left Emagic, I've gained a massive appreciation for sound reasoning, intuitive design, and proper implementation. Live has excelled at this obviously. Much as I want VSTi's, were they to compromise any of Live's performance or integrity, I would stay with 3.0 until I croak and make midi maps of samples with clips and say screw it.

anonym · Post by **anonym** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:57 pm

Just implement a new MidiTrack Class.
It may have an VSTi plus VST-FX, or a Midi Out.
After that implement a new Clip class.
For that Clip you need a diffrent editor.
(Piano Roll, MonoSynth and drum Patterns would be great,
but a Piano Roll should to.)

So after that check the Timing Diffrences, and
sync them well... (That´s the difficult part)

Voila, you make a lot of people happy, and the Rest won´t recognize.
You can play Audio Loops and Midi Patterns on your Synths live.

This doesn´t harm Live at all, but opens up a new Market.
I love to play my synths live, but there is !!!no!!! good Live Sequencer.

Imagine how creative you cold be.....
Start a DrumLoop, and Play your synth. Like It? Record it,
make new Loops through editing. Or keep the Midi and write Variations, change the
sound.
Ever tried to Change the Basedrum of a DrumLoop ?
Ever needed to give a Pad more FilterEnvv Attacksound,
and more LFO feeling?
Ever wanted to create a break, without stopping Live??
(Think about Consolidate and render... Or Envelopes, and then using the
clip in another Live Project...)

For Creating Music you need Synthesizers, you need to decouple the
playing from the sound. That´s the advantage in going Midi.
I also would Love to see what happens if Audio goes Midi, instead
of the Midi goes Audio, like those unusable crappy biggy Software thinigies.

The Hulk · Post by **The Hulk** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:04 pm

There actually is a good developing live midi sequencer called Numerology for Mac OSX. It is a very different way of sequencing than what we're requesting for the Live Midi app we're hoping for. I think in a few weeks you'll be able to trigger different patterns with midi controls. It's the epitomy of a pattern sequencer which can be somewhat difficult to make sense of but it already offers the versatility we're asking from Live and much more...like different effects patterns. A plus is that it even hosts it's own Audio Unit instruments. If this instrument ever implements Rewire you won't need a Live Midi App (if you're on OS X). What I think Ableton should do is buy the company, Five12, that produces this software, so they already have the backend to produce this Live Hybrid (and thus making the software friendly to PC users as well).
another plus is that this software acts as a midi controller for all your software and hardware synths...so essentially you don't really need the AU functionality if you've already got your own Virtual or Hardware Synths.
http://www.five12.com/

once the new version comes out in a few weeks i'm definitely buying this one (only $70!)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:25 am

Ill add my voice to this. Live is great software I like very much. But I cannot purchase until there is midi. Everything I do as a musician is midi so its impossible to work without it. I dont use multiple software running. Only one program at a time for me

Please ableton put the midi in the software

Best

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:28 am

Anonymous wrote:Everything I do as a musician is midi so its impossible to work without it.

ahem - if you are midi only - why would you use live in the first place?
It is so much focused on audio and will be - even if a basic midi sequencer will eventually will be implemented.

wee_malky · Post by **wee_malky** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:01 am

Hmmmm....let's think laterally here..

How about a VST plugin that converts midi control and note message to audio tones. Play back your track and the plugin converts them back to midi messages again (it supresses the audio and you can't touch the track volume). The left channel has a sync signal to indicate when to fire the message and right has the recorded midi data.

Does this sound daft?

WM

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:43 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Everything I do as a musician is midi so its impossible to work without it.
ahem - if you are midi only - why would you use live in the first place?
It is so much focused on audio and will be - even if a basic midi sequencer will eventually will be implemented.

Ahem, Well Dumbo, perhaps our friend, like me turns many midi tracks to audio at some point to fo those things that are quicker to achieve via audio manipulation.

Ahem, Im wondering, could you advise me so that I can play external or virtual midi devices using Live only? Nah, cant do that eh! whasssat!! loopee loopee poopeeee loopee . You se thats the thing isnt it. Right now Live is reliant on Rewire for external sound sources or pre-programmed loops. I suggest you are in the later category so therefor you would see no use for midi whatsoever becuase quite simply you dont actually write music, you are a Loopis. Fine, Great superb, and good for you. But there may come a day when you feel the need to play something yourself and without MIDI your pretty Fu ed. Oh, I hear ya. You might be a gtr band and no midi in sight. Again fine, great. But we as Midi/audio musicians need midi because thats our instrument juts as much as audio. Christ people, someones got to compose all those loops you people use.

Ahem.......aaahhh mumsy, wumsy wumsy snookie dookie. A bit worried about the addition of midi challenging your already severly challenged and not quite functioning brain. Well, Im sure they will do a Live Super Mini Dumbo Version for you and the rest of the intellectually challenged dumbos around here.

All you Midi fearing babies really ought to get a grip on reality. I cant even be bothered explaining why.

Ahem...........have a nice day Dumbass!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 12:34 pm

Alright, I'm with you. Bring on the MIDI sequencing...

MIDI is not that hard