(OT) I Have Seen The Light/ I Am A Changed Person

[TranNgoc2010]

the things you posted would be way better if they were funny. everything you say sounds like something a football (american football) player would say to his friends in a locker room. it's like, 'haha, isn't it funny how i'm just totally tasteless for no reason other than to be tasteless? woooooo!!! let's go fuck some fat chicks!' you probably send links to your message board comments to all of your 19 year old thugged out white boy friends and they all laugh because you and your friends have the sense of humor of a child molester. you're not funny, you're pathetic. in a month, when no one is shocked by what you say anymore (not that they are now), you'll quit posting here and, i dunno, go hook up with you step sister or something. that's my prediction.

What was so shocking? You don't think people smoke crack and do freaky shit? You actually believe you have the right to just shoot someone when they come in your house? I think I was just telling it like it is...how you read it was shocking but nothing I said was shocking or new to anyone who's lived in the cocaine world...

[Machinesworking]

But in all seriousness, whether or not you like his work, he must have done something right.


as an example of a similar idea, i think mathew barney's art is crap, but he's getting paid to throw vaseline on the walls of the guggenhiem and i'm not. In other words, i don't like his shit, but a bunch of other respected people do.




Again, i'm not trying to say that you should go out and do heroin or that heroin isn't a horribly addictive and dangerous drug, i'm just saying that it worked for at least one person. That's enough for me not to judge it absolutely.


I just sort of think that people should be allowed to put whatever the fuck they want into their bodies, including complete poison if that's what they want to do.

Personally I think burroughs is a great writer, and I've never considered that because he wrote about killing, junk, or little gay kids etc. that he HAD to be the kind of person who thought his imagination should be turned into reality.
The one thing about the drugs and art conversation that has always bothered me is that people assume that a particular writer, or musician was only gifted because of their addiction or predication for drugs and alcohol. If we took this into the realm of sex it could get pretty gross, Michael Jackson was only capable of making great pop songs when he was messing around with little boys, Freddy Mercury had to sleep with a ton of men instead of settling down and get AIDS to sing like he did, R Kelly sang so sweetly because he was able to pee on a 15 year old girl, and Jerry Lee Lewis could only rock out on the piano like he did because he was thinking about sleeping with his cousin.

To me anyway it's more like we're musicians/artists etc. we tend to push limits, and an out of balance ego is par for the course. Consuming sex, violence, food, drugs, whatever, at a higher rate than the normal population is almost a god given right as far as popular cultural stereotypes are concerned. It might help us to fully grasp the human condition, but it can get pretty dammed ugly sometimes.

The drugs alcohol and sex don't make us artists, but people tend to think that it does, simply because when most musicians wise up and clean up is about the time they lose their creative spark. It's BS though, there are plenty of great musicians that don't consume, but it's not as talked about, the fuck ups get our attention.

[quandry]

Personally I think burroughs is a great writer, and I've never considered that because he wrote about killing, junk, or little gay kids etc. that he HAD to be the kind of person who thought his imagination should be turned into reality.
The one thing about the drugs and art conversation that has always bothered me is that people assume that a particular writer, or musician was only gifted because of their addiction or predication for drugs and alcohol. If we took this into the realm of sex it could get pretty gross, Michael Jackson was only capable of making great pop songs when he was messing around with little boys, Freddy Mercury had to sleep with a ton of men instead of settling down and get AIDS to sing like he did, R Kelly sang so sweetly because he was able to pee on a 15 year old girl, and Jerry Lee Lewis could only rock out on the piano like he did because he was thinking about sleeping with his cousin.

To me anyway it's more like we're musicians/artists etc. we tend to push limits, and an out of balance ego is par for the course. Consuming sex, violence, food, drugs, whatever, at a higher rate than the normal population is almost a god given right as far as popular cultural stereotypes are concerned. It might help us to fully grasp the human condition, but it can get pretty dammed ugly sometimes.

The drugs alcohol and sex don't make us artists, but people tend to think that it does, simply because when most musicians wise up and clean up is about the time they lose their creative spark. It's BS though, there are plenty of great musicians that don't consume, but it's not as talked about, the fuck ups get our attention.

I fully agree, I don't think the drugs make the artist at all--there is always some talent there in the first place. Take any of the major drug casualties like Hendrix, Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Joplin, or non-casualties like the Rolling Stones or the Beatles--all of the started out and made good music while not on drugs. Just doing drugs isn't going to make your music or art better--most of the time it will make it worse (except maybe weed for some people).

[djadonis206]

The drugs alcohol and sex don't make us artists, but people tend to think that it does, simply because when most musicians wise up and clean up is about the time they lose their creative spark. It's BS though, there are plenty of great musicians that don't consume, but it's not as talked about, the fuck ups get our attention.

Actually the best artist I know don't use hard drugs - if they do they're pretty good about keeping it on the down low


I used to be all about sobriety and went to AA meetings and shit - kept relapsing and feeling so bad about being alive when I came to. It was weird.

So I'm out running the streets one night, made out with a couple random girls yelled at a horrible rock band then blacked out and ended up in county - for reals. Red Jump suit and all

haven't drank since ! That's all this brothers needed. I smoke a gang a weed now but the funny thing is I'm actually writting decent music and I'm more focused then I've ever been in my life. With Music, school, my relationships (yes, I have a couple right now - it's not as cool as it sounds) and life!

but before, I wasn't ready, I hadn't hit bottom and was just doing what I thought you were suppose to do - go to AA, rehab etc when you turned 28 and did coke, speed, E, drank and popped pills every weekend - I'll admit it got pretty bad...check this out.

I played 3 parties in one night, went to donalds hotel room at the Edgewater, went to some girls crib and drove my homie home

woke up the next day and wasn't even hung over. My friend Kellie called and said "thanks for playing last night"

I was like "playing what?"

She was like "my night."

I was like "what night?"

YUP! Blacked out the whole night - all three gigs, hotels and friends - as if I got off work at 5 and went straight to sleep - that's pretty fucked up right there. Confirmed with several people that's exactly what I did - everyone said I rocked it though...scarey non the less

That night in King County though, pretty much changed my life...

[Keyser Soze]

........ Your well being means more to me than whether or not you like me because I know that you're somebody's son, somebody's friend, somebody's employee and that getting in a bad way is such a tragic thing for a whole community of people, not just the person it affects.

I extend my best wishes -- feel free to pm if you feel like you're backtracking, I'm not all doom and gloom.

Thank you for your concern and best wishes!! But I can confidently state that I will never ever backtrack. As I said, at most it's just going to be on the odd occassion and only weed. Thanks for allowing me though to PM you should I feel the need to.

The funniest part to anybody who has been through addiction is that you are willing to risk everything in order to get high every once in a while, yet you ignore the psychological implications of that simple fact.

Good luck, it is of course possible to do anything, it just depends on how much of your willpower you want wrapped in the struggle not to indulge in old behavior when things aren't going your way.
What I'm getting at is that it isn't hard to beat addictive behavior when things are going well, and generally that's when people decide to indulge in the type of behavior that caused them grief. It's just that life doesn't offer you any guarantees , something horribly sad and emotionally painful is always looming, people die, accidents happen, women leave you, work becomes hell etc.... It's those times that are the hardest to face if you have any crutch to fall back on.

I have one friend who did it successfully, she drinks a bit and smokes pot occasionally after NA and beating a heroin addiction, but plenty who went right back out when shit hit the fan, the odds aren't that good at all.

I have never been the type to hit the bottle, or resort to drowning myself in a hedonistic rampage in troubled times. In fact in the last 5 years I have had quite a lot of personal tradgedies to deal with and believe me some have been pretty awful (some of which you mentioned above and worse), but I will spare you the details. During those times I could so easily I guess have sunk, but I didn't nor even did it enter my mind to go down that path (bear in mind that I have been clean living the last seven years or so). I really believe I am in total control. But thanks for your concern.

[Machinesworking]

I have never been the type to hit the bottle, or resort to drowning myself in a hedonistic rampage in troubled times. In fact in the last 5 years I have had quite a lot of personal tradgedies to deal with and believe me some have been pretty awful (some of which you mentioned above and worse), but I will spare you the details. During those times I could so easily I guess have sunk, but I didn't nor even did it enter my mind to go down that path (bear in mind that I have been clean living the last seven years or so). I really believe I am in total control. But thanks for your concern.

You missed my point. You can stay sober in troubling times much easier if you aren't consuming, if you do consume, and have issues with consumption in the past, then you up your odds of getting back to where you were when you decided to quit the first time. Sure, you might be an exception, but the truth is if you decide to go back out and moderately use, then you are admitting that the perceived benefits of consumption outweigh the risks. If you really think about that, it's pretty scary. Basically you're willing to take the risk of losing everything in order to feel a certain way on a certain drug. That weed is that important to you, that doesn't make you pause?

Hey, it's possible you do OK? Adonis is at the moment succeeding, and oddly enough, my dad smoked pot for 18 years after quitting drinking. Thing with him though is he was fighting an internal battle with it the whole time though, it just took him 18 years to quit. Sez a lot about how much peer pressure plays into weed. Hate to say it, but all my friends loved getting stoned with my dad, and they weren't the only ones. I was pretty surprised that he thought of it as a problem considering how little it changed his attitude for the worse.

[forge]

Good luck, it is of course possible to do anything, it just depends on how much of your willpower you want wrapped in the struggle not to indulge in old behavior when things aren't going your way.
What I'm getting at is that it isn't hard to beat addictive behavior when things are going well, and generally that's when people decide to indulge in the type of behavior that caused them grief. It's just that life doesn't offer you any guarantees , something horribly sad and emotionally painful is always looming, people die, accidents happen, women leave you, work becomes hell etc.... It's those times that are the hardest to face if you have any crutch to fall back on.

I have one friend who did it successfully, she drinks a bit and smokes pot occasionally after NA and beating a heroin addiction, but plenty who went right back out when shit hit the fan, the odds aren't that good at all.

I think you're dead right there - I wouldnt mind betting everyone who has the disease has something in them or their life they arent happy with

personally it seems to work that way for me

Keyser said he has a busy life and too much going on to risk so that is probably a good reason why he wont let it get on top of him....for now

BUT - and it is a BIG but - once you allow yourself to dabble if you have those tendencies, then there is very little self control mechanism in place to stop you when something does go wrong.

Like recently in the "alcohol" thread conny started, when we both went on the cold turkey thing and that in itself was what gave us the power to avoid it completely and find replacements, but then when I found it quite easy to do I thought it doesnt control me so I can handle it. Within about a week or two after that decision I was back into the same old habits because I didnt have that resolve keeping me focused.

so I'm not denying you can practice moderation well, but if something in your life isnt going smoothly then watch how quickly that ability disintegrates, especially if you've had those tendencies in the past

[Keyser Soze]

You missed my point. You can stay sober in troubling times much easier if you aren't consuming, if you do consume, and have issues with consumption in the past, then you up your odds of getting back to where you were when you decided to quit the first time. Sure, you might be an exception, but the truth is if you decide to go back out and moderately use, then you are admitting that the perceived benefits of consumption outweigh the risks. If you really think about that, it's pretty scary. Basically you're willing to take the risk of losing everything in order to feel a certain way on a certain drug. That weed is that important to you, that doesn't make you pause?

Hey, it's possible you do OK? Adonis is at the moment succeeding, and oddly enough, my dad smoked pot for 18 years after quitting drinking. Thing with him though is he was fighting an internal battle with it the whole time though, it just took him 18 years to quit. Sez a lot about how much peer pressure plays into weed. Hate to say it, but all my friends loved getting stoned with my dad, and they weren't the only ones. I was pretty surprised that he thought of it as a problem considering how little it changed his attitude for the worse.

I don't think I missed your point (but lets not get into a debate about it). Weed is not that important to me either. I just got high once after 7 years or so of clean living and enjoyed the experience for what it was. I don't have the urge nor intention to even use it moderately. Every once in a while at most and maybe not ever again (though I doubt that). I have functioned extremely well and achieved so much without it. I guess I have/or rather had an addictive personality (probably still have), but I have developed ways to deal with it (see past posts).
I guess my original post was to say that despite my anti strong stance and being very forceful with it, I think it is ok in moderation and if you are in control of the situation and that it doesn't rule you. I basically wanted to say sorry for being so narrow and single minded. I don't need to be stoned anymore, but when I recently got stoned I enjoyed it for what it was and no more. I haven't rushed out and got more weed, though I still have some left over, nor even had the urge to get stoned since. I know I will do OK and that I am in full control of the situation. For example I love a really good bottle of wine. I enjoy it at the time, get slightly drunk and delight in the pleasure of the moment. I have no desire to do the following the day/week/ or even month after. In fact I often won't touch not even a drop of alcohol (wine) for maybe another 3 months or more, even though I absolutley enjoy a good wine (I have some excellent wines by the way stored in my cellar).

Keyser said he has a busy life and too much going on to risk so that is probably a good reason why he wont let it get on top of him....for now

Or ever!!! I have had loads of serious personal shit to deal with and never felt the need to use drugs or alcohol to deal with it in the last 7 years.

BUT - and it is a BIG but - once you allow yourself to dabble if you have those tendencies, then there is very little self control mechanism in place to stop you when something does go wrong.

I appreciate what you are saying, but these days I have a will of iron and that has been my survival mechanism and will always be. Believe me, I have had more than my fair share of crap to deal with!!!

so I'm not denying you can practice moderation well, but if something in your life isnt going smoothly then watch how quickly that ability disintegrates, especially if you've had those tendencies in the past

As I have said, I am confident that I am in total control, but to remain truly objective, only time will tell. But I know me better than you know me and what I have been through, struggle and deal with now. I am not saying that I am some super human that can cope with everything that comes my way, because I can't. I have a few very serious issues that I haven't sorted out in my life and they will probably never be sorted out, but I haven't collapsed into a heap.

[b0unce]

suck a tailpipe.

[Keyser Soze]

suck a tailpipe.

Sorry, I don't understand! What do you mean?

[smutek]

But in all seriousness, whether or not you like his work, he must have done something right.

as an example of a similar idea, i think mathew barney's art is crap, but he's getting paid to throw vaseline on the walls of the guggenhiem and i'm not. In other words, i don't like his shit, but a bunch of other respected people do.

I think that, in addition to being an avenue for self expression, one of the things that good art does is to promote thought and raise social awareness in the community where it is displayed, viewed, read or listened to.

In 1969 Charles Odenburg was commissioned to do a sculpture on the campus of Yale University. The sculpture was titled Lipstick (Ascending) on Caterpillar Tracks, and was just that - a giant, phallic, pink tube of lipstick set atop bulldozer tracks. It was not what was Yale was expecting, it was immediately met with public ridicule, and plans were made to tear it back down. Students at Yale and other members of the community felt differently and banded together to fight for the sculpture and in the end it was allowed to stand.

Some people loved the sculpture, some people hated it. But love it or hate it the sculpture and the ensuing debate sparked peoples imaginations, caused them to become more aware of the arts and take some sort of action in their community.

Not that the arts always have to spark action in the community, but say a man and his wife are sitting in the coffee shop looking at a painting on the wall. The man comments, you know, "what the hell is that... a child could throw paint all over a canvas and call it art". The woman does not agree. For the next half hour the couple engage in debate over what is or is not art, their favorite painters, etc.

I think it is particularly interesting to see this effect on people who are generally not interested in or aware of art.

Here we have bunch of electronic music heads debating the importance of burroughs work on an internet forum.

So in that sense I think Burroughs was good. Personally I fail to see the genius in his work, but I still have a large amount of respect for it. Some of that may be because I am an ex-junky. I don't know.

Again, i'm not trying to say that you should go out and do heroin or that heroin isn't a horribly addictive and dangerous drug, i'm just saying that it worked for at least one person. That's enough for me not to judge it absolutely.

I don't think heroin "worked" for Burroughs. Not like it was some sort of tool for him or something. He was a junky, it is what it is. He was also a pretty tortured soul, a lot of artists are, and was probably running from something like a lot of junkies do.

I just sort of think that people should be allowed to put whatever the fuck they want into their bodies, including complete poison if that's what they want to do.

I agree. I don't think it is the place of the State to tell them they can't, and I definitely do not think they should be imprisoned for doing so.

[jeskola]

its alrighjt unlewss ye end up like this




ha.. no in all seriouness as with anything... in modaeration its all cool, had some of the best times on it (weed, pils, powder) , some great times with friends.... but when you start crossing the road when you see people you know, not answering your phone and panicking when the doorbell goes - maybe its time to stop !

[the ar]

Damn, that pic is absolutely mind bending.
I've never seen anyone in such awful conditions. :/