Dough isn't really an issue, and I'm betting on OSC support for Live eventually. (Maybe this is stupid).b0unce wrote:heh, I agree with you 100% sweetJ, my point is she should take her ferrari to 'the circuit' and not for playing bumper cars. Or buy herself a fleet of pimped out bumper cars, perfect for playing bumper cars.sweetjesus wrote:man, get the frekkin lemur ok!
sorry to all the other posters, but i am one of those people who would pay for a ferarri over a toyota anyday (if i had the cash) and electronic music is meant to be fun and about cool toys and things which blink and make you drool over then in your sleep
go on, splurge, have fun .. get high and look at the blinking lights.
apologies for analogies
oh and ambiou, the point isnt that the lemur cant be used for djing trance, just that its a massive waste of resource in our (it seems) opinion. so while you can concoct ways of using it for djing trance with ableton live, well & good......well actually lets hear some of these methods, thats what alison wants to hear anyways.
not to mention the lemur has to take the midi route to control ableton live......2,200 euro to control ableton live via midi ? .......no f-in way, spend your dough on other toys instead
The Lemur
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Allison Redhead
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in OSC land, in midi land where ableton lives things aint so rosey. drop the money on other stuff instead, wait for ableton live to support OSC then buy a lemur, maybe a price drop by then too - but thats not important anyways.Allison Redhead wrote: it's about the ability to really perform live... to run fluid distortions in the two measures before the next clip triggers, to watch the crowd and respond. That's why I think the lemur is going to be worth the effort and money.
-Allison
(ya I think so) Heh, betting on osc support eventually ? What good is that to you now ? Its no good to you now...this is a case of wishful thinking, in which case logical thinking stands not a chance...Allison Redhead wrote:Dough isn't really an issue, and I'm betting on OSC support for Live eventually. (Maybe this is stupid).
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Allison Redhead
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Do we have reason to believe Live isn't going to support OSC?b0unce wrote:(ya I think so) Heh, betting on osc support eventually ? What good is that to you now ? Its no good to you now...this is a case of wishful thinking, in which case logical thinking stands not a chance...Allison Redhead wrote:Dough isn't really an issue, and I'm betting on OSC support for Live eventually. (Maybe this is stupid).
(Indeed, I may be in la-la land!)
Do we have a reason to believe that it'll be supported any time soon? No. There aren't that many controllers out there that do support OSC. If live supports it in 6, that'll be great, but i doubt it (however, i may eat my words shortly). As such, until that time, you'll have to run a max patch (no biggie, but that's the case)Do we have reason to believe Live isn't going to support OSC?
(Indeed, I may be in la-la land!)
well I believe we can safely assume that should OSC become available to ableton live it wont happen until at least ableton live 6.
now consider this, how many osc controllers are out there ?...not that many
also, look at live 5 and its release. the abes made a dog's dinner out of it up until 5.2, with varying degrees of dog-dinner-ness depending on how you used ableton. In short I dont trust the abes to implement OSC control well...especially for the first 6months, I mean...going by the way live 5 was done anyways. And thats if they decide to implement it, maybe they have bigger fish to fry, definatly not something I'd be making any assumptions about, either way.
my point is, they may not even decide to implement osc for live 6, and if they did it I think its fair to guess they might cock it up for the first 6-12 months, going by experience with live 5.
so I really wouldnt feel good about going to all this trouble, just to use a glorified midi controller that cost alot of money. I'm no stranger to spending absolutely -ALL- my money on gear, but its good to keep the proportions of cost & function in mind, 2200 / abe-live midi controller ..... just dont make sense unless really all you want is the shiney lights and the novelty factor - in which case satisfaction is guaranteed.
I understand the appeal of building your own interface etc...and I'm a complete gear-wh0re, and I'm 99% of the time spurring people on to buy stuff.....but not in this case, not for djing with an OSCless ableton live
also, I believe the jackal made a good point about the road-worthiness of the unit....
now consider this, how many osc controllers are out there ?...not that many
also, look at live 5 and its release. the abes made a dog's dinner out of it up until 5.2, with varying degrees of dog-dinner-ness depending on how you used ableton. In short I dont trust the abes to implement OSC control well...especially for the first 6months, I mean...going by the way live 5 was done anyways. And thats if they decide to implement it, maybe they have bigger fish to fry, definatly not something I'd be making any assumptions about, either way.
my point is, they may not even decide to implement osc for live 6, and if they did it I think its fair to guess they might cock it up for the first 6-12 months, going by experience with live 5.
so I really wouldnt feel good about going to all this trouble, just to use a glorified midi controller that cost alot of money. I'm no stranger to spending absolutely -ALL- my money on gear, but its good to keep the proportions of cost & function in mind, 2200 / abe-live midi controller ..... just dont make sense unless really all you want is the shiney lights and the novelty factor - in which case satisfaction is guaranteed.
I understand the appeal of building your own interface etc...and I'm a complete gear-wh0re, and I'm 99% of the time spurring people on to buy stuff.....but not in this case, not for djing with an OSCless ableton live
also, I believe the jackal made a good point about the road-worthiness of the unit....
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gpvillamil
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:07 am
Wait, anyone here with actual experience of the Lemur?
I've used one for a bit, for VJing, not audio, and it is amazing.
Just don't think of it as a highly configurable MIDI interface, don't just replicate the layout(s) of your favorite controller.
You have to be much more creative with how you use it.
For example, rather than setting up a virtual fader on the Lemur to control tempo, set up a "bouncing balls" object to directly generate percussion events.
Since the Lemur supports a large number of control layouts, all of them instantly available, you can think of making layouts to control individual songs, or even melodic phrases.
For me, the big epiphany with the Lemur was not to try to build a single UI for controlling the VJ soft (with zillions of knobs and faders) but rather to build individual layouts for specific clips and effects.
This is the beauty of the lemur - that it gives you in effect 100's of custom controllers for very specific things. Designing the lemur interface should become an integral part of your creative process. Think of your music as something malleable and tweakable, and link it to the lemur. Think of the lemur as a musical instrument, not a controller. When fully functioning, you don't need to look at the computer screen.
There is another controller that is somewhat "lemur-like", it is the Monome 40H (http://monome.org/). Check out the videos on the site of performers using the monome, that will actually give you a flavor of what it is like to perform with the lemur as well.
http://monome.org/media/monome40h.mov
http://monome.org/media/monome40h_next.mov
From the launch party:
http://monome.org/media/monome_daedelus.mov
http://monome.org/media/monome_portablesunsets.mov
http://monome.org/media/monome_tehn.mov
The monome is very tough, very robust. It might inspire you too.
And there is the Tenori-on, which is actually a self-contained musical instrument with a family resemblance to monome and lemur.
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/design/tenori-on/
I've used one for a bit, for VJing, not audio, and it is amazing.
Just don't think of it as a highly configurable MIDI interface, don't just replicate the layout(s) of your favorite controller.
You have to be much more creative with how you use it.
For example, rather than setting up a virtual fader on the Lemur to control tempo, set up a "bouncing balls" object to directly generate percussion events.
Since the Lemur supports a large number of control layouts, all of them instantly available, you can think of making layouts to control individual songs, or even melodic phrases.
For me, the big epiphany with the Lemur was not to try to build a single UI for controlling the VJ soft (with zillions of knobs and faders) but rather to build individual layouts for specific clips and effects.
This is the beauty of the lemur - that it gives you in effect 100's of custom controllers for very specific things. Designing the lemur interface should become an integral part of your creative process. Think of your music as something malleable and tweakable, and link it to the lemur. Think of the lemur as a musical instrument, not a controller. When fully functioning, you don't need to look at the computer screen.
There is another controller that is somewhat "lemur-like", it is the Monome 40H (http://monome.org/). Check out the videos on the site of performers using the monome, that will actually give you a flavor of what it is like to perform with the lemur as well.
http://monome.org/media/monome40h.mov
http://monome.org/media/monome40h_next.mov
From the launch party:
http://monome.org/media/monome_daedelus.mov
http://monome.org/media/monome_portablesunsets.mov
http://monome.org/media/monome_tehn.mov
The monome is very tough, very robust. It might inspire you too.
And there is the Tenori-on, which is actually a self-contained musical instrument with a family resemblance to monome and lemur.
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/design/tenori-on/
the individual layouts for very specific duties is interesting...but when I thought about it, thats how I'd use it anyways....but ya, thats the beauty of it.
got any ideas for djing trance with ableton live ? .... I mean...its djing to a locked groove, lets not forget what her intended use was . If it was only in osc, then it would be kool...but the midi thing really turns me off, due to lack of feedback...unless theres a way around that ? and latency.
when I get maxmsp, I'm gonna see how I get on and if its lookin good I'm gonna get a lemur. I reckon it should be sweet. By that time a new product may be on the horizons of a similar nature, or significant improvements in OS etc. also I use bidule....hey wait a minute, I think bidule supports osc ?...would be kool to interface the lemur to some bidule patches, and its a cheap & slightly easier way to enter that whole modular processing bit.
www.plogue.com
got any ideas for djing trance with ableton live ? .... I mean...its djing to a locked groove, lets not forget what her intended use was . If it was only in osc, then it would be kool...but the midi thing really turns me off, due to lack of feedback...unless theres a way around that ? and latency.
when I get maxmsp, I'm gonna see how I get on and if its lookin good I'm gonna get a lemur. I reckon it should be sweet. By that time a new product may be on the horizons of a similar nature, or significant improvements in OS etc. also I use bidule....hey wait a minute, I think bidule supports osc ?...would be kool to interface the lemur to some bidule patches, and its a cheap & slightly easier way to enter that whole modular processing bit.
www.plogue.com
exactly! the main stenght of the lemur is that it makes live performers think in terms of "song layout" instead of "software layout"gpvillamil wrote: making layouts to control individual songs, or even melodic phrases.
Allison,
i heard that some djs find parting with physical knobs and faders quite daunting and had trouble performing precise fader movements with the lemur... but if you think it can enhance your creativity go for it.
its also an additional pod from the other zillion trance djs, but be ready to face some criticism from your peers if your set doesnt live up to your super-gear.
keep us posted!
Ben
I haven't used one, but have looked at the videos and specs and price. For the way I work Live for performances, I want to have everything midi mapped and right there in front of me. I don't like scrolling through presets to find the right one, and risking turning a knob that does something entirely different than what I'm trying to do, so for me, I only use one preset on any controller. I have a uc33e, all my qwerty keys mapped, a DM2, fcb 1010, and bcr-2000, and everything is mapped. The touch screen on the lemur is not that big, especially when you consider that fingertips are fairly large. Thus, from all I've seen online of the Lemur, you don't have that much at your fingertips at any given time (less than any singular midi controller I can think of), and you are stuck resorting to dozens of presets to control all the parameters you want.
Of course, it can do some really interesting things other controllers can't do, and for the person with all the controllers they want and money to burn, it would probably be a great addition to a set up. But as the only controller, for the way I work at least, it would suck live--I hate having to take the time to find the right preset to change one thing, then shuffle through more presets to find something else--time scrolling through presets on stage is time lost. For the control-hungry and budget-conscious me, I'd take a slew of controllers (like I have!) over the lemur--more control at your fingertips, less price, less risk of pricey things getting broken, spilled-on, worn out, etc. Behringers are a dime-a-dozen compared to lemurs!
I'd recommend searching these forums and reading the threads here--I seam to recall a thread in the last few months that the resolution of lemur "fader" and "knob" elements weren't that precise when controlling Live, and I also remember reading about some latency issues--worth checking out before blowing your wad.
my 2 cents...
Of course, it can do some really interesting things other controllers can't do, and for the person with all the controllers they want and money to burn, it would probably be a great addition to a set up. But as the only controller, for the way I work at least, it would suck live--I hate having to take the time to find the right preset to change one thing, then shuffle through more presets to find something else--time scrolling through presets on stage is time lost. For the control-hungry and budget-conscious me, I'd take a slew of controllers (like I have!) over the lemur--more control at your fingertips, less price, less risk of pricey things getting broken, spilled-on, worn out, etc. Behringers are a dime-a-dozen compared to lemurs!
I'd recommend searching these forums and reading the threads here--I seam to recall a thread in the last few months that the resolution of lemur "fader" and "knob" elements weren't that precise when controlling Live, and I also remember reading about some latency issues--worth checking out before blowing your wad.
my 2 cents...
Dell Studio XPS 8100 Windows 7 64-bit, 10 GB RAM. RME Multiface, Avalon U5 & M5, Distressor, Filter Factory, UC33e, BCR-2000, FCB1010, K-Station, Hr 824 & H120 sub, EZ Bus, V-Drums, DrumKat EZ, basses, guitars, pedals... http://www.ryan-hughes.net
Yeah, I agree with bOunce...b0unce wrote:
not to mention the lemur has to take the midi route to control ableton live......2,200 euro to control ableton live via midi ? .......no f-in way, spend your dough on other toys instead
2,200 Euros or $25000 to control Ableton Live is just too much money. The Lemurs are going to be the thing for about a year or so, then there will be way more cost effective products (which will be high quality as well) coming out. I mean they look cool and everything but I personally would rather spend my money on synths (hard or soft) or a nicer set of monitors, desk, microphones, etc.
Don't get me wrong, the Lemur is great. I just couldn't justify spending that much money on a controller, as revolutinary as it may be. I don't think I would worry as much if it was half of the cost and tailor made for me but sadly it is neither.
I don't know why it would matter if you play trance vs. any other style of music. That shouldn't make any difference.
thelike5,thelike5 wrote: The Lemurs are going to be the thing for about a year or so, then there will be way more cost effective products (which will be high quality as well) coming out
is this statement based on vague facts or rumors u heard or thats pure speculation?
jus wondering y you're saying that...
Get a Lemur if youy want. The style of music you play REALLY is not an issue here.
I personally think that a touch screen is askin for trouble. Just touch a powerbook touchpad when your hand is a bit sweaty and it jumps all over the place! You really do NOT want that happenin on a large sound system: I trust you can work out why.
Like the Lemur and the 3D, theres a whole host of controllers waiting round the corner, you've just gotta be patient like the rest of us. Maybe price isn't an issue, but functionality certainly is, for all of us.
Any punk could make an awesome controller with enough money to invest, but ultimately, it will, 9/10 look shit, and also not be totally what you want, given the cheddar that you have invested. Even Sasha's Maven is being re-designed for like the 3rd time, and look how much that must have cost him, just the first time round!!!
We are all very frustrated with controllers. You can buy Live for less than £300, but yet companies like allen+heath or Lemur wanna charge over 5 tmes that, and for what??? A MIDI controller???
FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rant over, nuff said
I personally think that a touch screen is askin for trouble. Just touch a powerbook touchpad when your hand is a bit sweaty and it jumps all over the place! You really do NOT want that happenin on a large sound system: I trust you can work out why.
Like the Lemur and the 3D, theres a whole host of controllers waiting round the corner, you've just gotta be patient like the rest of us. Maybe price isn't an issue, but functionality certainly is, for all of us.
Any punk could make an awesome controller with enough money to invest, but ultimately, it will, 9/10 look shit, and also not be totally what you want, given the cheddar that you have invested. Even Sasha's Maven is being re-designed for like the 3rd time, and look how much that must have cost him, just the first time round!!!
We are all very frustrated with controllers. You can buy Live for less than £300, but yet companies like allen+heath or Lemur wanna charge over 5 tmes that, and for what??? A MIDI controller???
FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rant over, nuff said
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Allison Redhead
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