The Lemur

Hedroom · Post by **Hedroom** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:00 am

I've got one and use it alongside Max/MSP and Live and I love it.

Is it overkill for Ableton? Someone said "what's the point? You can't control anything in Ableton that you couldn't with a cheaper solution". I think that misses the point somewhat. Think of your "Kaoss" style xy pad. With one of these you can create related control data for two parameters with one gesture. The parameters are more closely related in there movements than that which you would acheive with two discreet knobs. Control acheived using something like the lemur can sound more "organic". Name another controller which allows you to controll 15 parameters simultaneously and in a related way with the sweep of one hand (multiball object with 5 balls).

However, I would agree that if my only aspirations had been to use it solely with ableton I probably wouldn't have splashed out on it. It's ceratinly great bedfellows with software like Max/Msp where you are only limited by your imagination.

I've found that it's pretty useful for production lately too. Particularly for sounds which you want to constantly evoulve througout the track.

The build is fairly rugged and I don't worry about people breaking/spilling beer on it. My gear's all insured so should the worst happen I'm covered. In my experience, gear is pretty safe from meddling hands in the DJ booth anyhow.

So, it's not cheap and yes, there may be something just around the corner. There always is with music and computer technology though. If you want one now and can afford it I say go for it - live for the moment! If you're not willing to get under the hood and really learn it though I'd say don't bother. It's certainly not an automapping works straight-out-of-the-box kind of machine.

buzzcock · Post by **buzzcock** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:18 am

Splashmas wrote: It's certainly not an automapping works straight-out-of-the-box kind of machine.

But it could be. Someone who knows how needs to reverse engineer Novations Automap protocol and feed it into the Jazz Editor. How cool would that be?

Of course you could just use Automapping as a starting point and customize to your heart's content.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:46 pm

buzzcock wrote:
Splashmas wrote: It's certainly not an automapping works straight-out-of-the-box kind of machine.
But it could be. Someone who knows how needs to reverse engineer Novations Automap protocol and feed it into the Jazz Editor. How cool would that be?

afaik the Lemur can't display text coming over sysex, though ,so half the coolness is gone right there.

Can someone confirm this?

Hedroom · Post by **Hedroom** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:52 pm

In it's current incarnation, no, I don't think it can.

The 'mutants are always updating the firmware and software though so who knows what the future holds.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:45 pm

Jackal and Hyde wrote: Well, for one thing, its because "Trance" is possibly the most simple, predictable music to beat match/mix on Earth next to house. The whole idea of *Lemur needed for Trance* to kick ass in front of a crowd is absurd to tell you the truth. (Especially using Ableton to mix) It's 'vanity' period on a trance level. If you've got Craze on 5 tables or Ableton or Final Scratch working D&B with Breaks, Hip Hop and Underground Chicago mixed with movie samples and back spinning Funk, yea... But 4x4 Trance needs "Lemur", Give me a break. It's so overkill its beyond ridiculous. The last show I did with BT (Doing a tribute Trance set) while using Live, he had a Laptop, a pile of crap Oxygen and a mouse. . . . . . . . . . . And he brought the fckn house down no prob. 1,000 kids with 2,000 hands in the air for an hour an a half. I see it as a total waste of money, but actually believing it would help a person playing trance sound/look good = 10 x's more stupid. Take the $2,200 and go to Vegas and put it on RED/ Or buy gear that will actually help you make better Trance Music... < SSL's 'Duende' comes to mind.

what is the point of criticising someone's music of choice on this thread? Why not just give useful suggestions if you have them in reguards to the lemur or keep quiet? The lemur could open up really interesting compositional and control opportunities for producers in any genre--it seems obvious that she is producing her own music not just "beat matching".

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:52 pm

Splashmas wrote: Name another controller which allows you to controll 15 parameters simultaneously and in a related way with the sweep of one hand (multiball object with 5 balls).

Ironically, the controller that comes closest is the cheapest one availible--the DM2!!! The reason why it can do this is the amazing DM2midi software (free!) that Pdoom wrote. With it, you can assign any number of midi parameters to any button, wheel, crossfader, or x-y joystick. Granted, it is no lemur by the furthest strecth of the imagination, but I think it brings up a good point--controllers themselves should allow mapping of multiple midi parameters to a knob, slider, or joystick and/or Live should allow mapping of a given knob to multiple parameters (ie an option to not have the "override" mesage). btw, I've read that using midi ox you can route other regular midi controllers into the dm2midi software and thus map multiple midi commands to a single knob, slider, whatever. Haven't done it myself, but I've read that it works.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:16 pm

midi can only handle so many simultanious CC numbers, so keep ideas of 15 parameters all changing smoothly with minimal latency at bay.....not to mention there's no feedback as far as I'm aware.....just not worth it for now.

the lemur is great, but for djing trance with ableton and no OSC its a waste of money, only good things can come from using a simpler solution FOR NOW and picking up a lemur later, when ableton is OSC friendly.

the midi issue is a huge bottleneck for getting your moneys worth out of the lemur, in my opinion.

now lemur and something OSC friendly, now thats a different kettle of fish.

seriously, her question was about djing trance....so think of it this way, whats the best way to spend 2,200 euro on an ableton live trance dj-set.

my money would go on a couple of fader foxes (www.faderfox.com) with/or some kenton knobs/faders, kenton are also working on a live controller (www.kenton.co.uk) These are -EXCELLENT- manufacturers with excellent build quality intended for gigging, and when you pick up a lemur I bet you wont sell these controllers. Kentons are programmable and will survive the next ice age.

then I would pick up a future retro revolution, perfect for live work and I'd say she'd have to be completely brain-dead if she couldnt get some trance material out of this excellent machine http://www.future-retro.com/REVOLUTION.html

then, for a drum-machine I would suggest the elektron machinedrum plus jomox mbase01.

this would cost a couple of hundred more, but allison said money wasnt a problem. I think this would be infintely more useful for her as a trance dj/producer until ableton live supports osc and then she can pick up the lemur if she still wants it, in the mean time working on a mean trance-set.

thomann.de is selling both the machinedrum and the jomox mbase01 at the cheapest prices I've seen anywhere., other then second-hand stuff from ebay etc. faderfox sells direct, analogue addiction are selling the future-retro in the UK, not sure about kenton but thomann possibly stock them, or kenton sell direct ? I bought mine from some random online merchant in the uk whos name escapes me.

of course, this trance setup would only really work if she had a mixer to accomodate the combination of drum machine, acid machine, and sample machine (cpu+ableton) - and its based obviously just my personal preference so take it with a pinch of salt if you dont dig it.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:27 pm

b0unce wrote:midi can only handle so many simultanious CC numbers, so keep ideas of 15 parameters all changing smoothly with minimal latency at bay.....not to mention there's no feedback as far as I'm aware.....just not worth it for now.

From experiences with the DM2 I have to disagree. For instance, I have one DM2 button that literally controls 68 midi cc parameters--I use it to reset all of my sliders, pans, and send knobs to their "zero" positions. It works perfectly, instantly, every time--68 fixed cc messages at once. Sure, maybe this gets trickier with knobs and slider that are sending variable midi data, but I don't see why this would be impossible. I'll try assigning a bunch of things to the joystick to see what happens...

Hedroom · Post by **Hedroom** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:34 pm

I have to say I haven't noticed this MIDI bottleneck in practise. If you use pitch bend control messages you can get super smooth movement too. I agree though, there must be a limit to how much data can be sent via MIDI - I wonder what it is. Hasn't caused me any problems so far though.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:38 pm

Splashmas wrote:I have to say I haven't noticed this MIDI bottleneck in practise. If you use pitch bend control messages you can get super smooth movement too. I agree though, there must be a limit to how much data can be sent via MIDI - I wonder what it is. Hasn't caused me any problems so far though.

I was just thinking that maybe some of this supposed "bottleneck" might be either old news that is no longer valid or in reguard to hardware midi cables/devices. Maybe that is why midi data created "virtually" inside my computer with dm2midi software and piped "virtually" to my applications like Live has no limitations or "bottlenecks". We all know that the information being sent is very rudimentary and tiny in size, it seems kindof whack that in this day and age that something as miniscule as midi data should get clogged while I can stream 18 tracks of 24/48 audio from a fw drive.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:40 pm

let me repeat myself, all changing smoothly with minimal latency.

resetting a bunch of parameters to zero is not what we're talking about here, we're talking about swishing your finger around a touch pad and having 15 parameters all change smoothly and without an annoying amount of lag.

and the point remains, whats a better way to improve an ableton live trance set ? seriously now, dont let your ego force you to stay on one side of the argument, you really think buying a lemur to control ableton live via midi via a maxpatch to dj trance is the best way to improve a trance set ?

You could do some kool stuff with osc support, but it would be a drag without it when you could do the same thing albeit not as shiney with some much simpler midi controllers. Not to mention spending the change on a revolution and a machine drum, two units screaming live playability.....not to mention they are excellent step based performance units...

and by the time ableton is running smoothly with osc, pickk up a lemur. Would fit in nicely with the setup at that stage.

or she could buy a lemur now, and use it to control ableton live via midi

i know which trance set i'd rather check out

Hedroom · Post by **Hedroom** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:43 pm

quandry wrote:
Splashmas wrote:I have to say I haven't noticed this MIDI bottleneck in practise. If you use pitch bend control messages you can get super smooth movement too. I agree though, there must be a limit to how much data can be sent via MIDI - I wonder what it is. Hasn't caused me any problems so far though.
I was just thinking that maybe some of this supposed "bottleneck" might be either old news that is no longer valid or in reguard to hardware midi cables/devices. Maybe that is why midi data created "virtually" inside my computer with dm2midi software and piped "virtually" to my applications like Live has no limitations or "bottlenecks". We all know that the information being sent is very rudimentary and tiny in size, it seems kindof whack that in this day and age that something as miniscule as midi data should get clogged while I can stream 18 tracks of 24/48 audio from a fw drive.

Yep, this is something I've wondered a few times - are virtual midi cables subject to the same limitations as real midi?

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:49 pm

well...yes (these virtual cables could very well be interacting with real midi equipment so It would be folly to go beyond the midi standard in the computer realm - for that you make another standard, OSC) . BUT you have alot more 'virtual' ins and outs, so you can make up for it.

then of course the spec of your machine will come into it, and exactly what parameters you are changing - these could be cpu-hog functions, and not exactly parameters that can be 'whipped' or moved beyond a certain speed without glitching etc....

but thats a given really.

Hedroom · Post by **Hedroom** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:08 pm

In fact, there is a "limit MIDI rate" function on the lemur. Perhaps this limits it's output to ol' fashioned MIDI.

Allison Redhead · Post by **Allison Redhead** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:11 pm

b0unce wrote:and the point remains, whats a better way to improve an ableton live trance set ? seriously now, dont let your ego force you to stay on one side of the argument, you really think buying a lemur to control ableton live via midi via a maxpatch to dj trance is the best way to improve a trance set ?

You could do some kool stuff with osc support, but it would be a drag without it when you could do the same thing albeit not as shiney with some much simpler midi controllers. Not to mention spending the change on a revolution and a machine drum, two units screaming live playability.....not to mention they are excellent step based performance units...

and by the time ableton is running smoothly with osc, pickk up a lemur. Would fit in nicely with the setup at that stage.

or she could buy a lemur now, and use it to control ableton live via midi

i know which trance set i'd rather check out

I already have a number of the toys you describe above, and I am trying to produce more. However, you've pointed some key things out.

I am a complete Live addict now on many levels, including for production, even though I'm still only at the experiment level with Live. Before finding Live I've been dropping my own tracks into sets for awhile now and I think I can probably get much more sophisticated about them with better tools.

What really interested me about the Lemur is the ability to customize the interface. I was looking at it like a very sophisticated Kaos pad. I can see, however, that with the MIDI limitiation in Live it might be silly to buy a Lemur, even with the production stuff I would like to do.

The point to me is to perform with the same equipment you use in the studio. I'm excited about the studio potential for the Lemur, primarily, but I wouldn't buy it unless I could use it live as well.

I am now thinking the thing to do is wait for Live to catch up (OSC anyone?) and then reevaluate. Maybe we'll get lucky for Live 6. (Hint hint hint!) By that time maybe some alternative products will have emerged, or prices will dip.

I haven't totally made up my mind yet. I'm interested to see what others have to say.