Why do you hate EDM? "House, Trance, Techno"

krank · Post by **krank** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:49 pm

martin808 wrote:it is more to do with just musical taste. it's to do with the clubs, scene, culture...but you said to leave that aside.

Good point. The 'culture' and the 'music' are inseparable phenomena/concepts.

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:49 pm

People can dance to hip hop, IDM (some), rock, etc., but that's not what happens, people are trained to only dance to four on the floor kick and snare.

Well.... I don't know about things in Seattle.... but people here in the east coast don't have ANY problem dancing to hip-hop. In fact, they act like that's the only music that can be danced to.

Many times, when I have had gigs, I have had girls bothering me to play hip-hop.

"Do you have (Insert rap song here)?"

"Can you play something we can dance to?"

"Can you play something with a beat?"

Go to any club that plays hip-hop, and you'll see a roomfull of hoochies gettin' down. Find a club that plays house music, and it will probably be empty.

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:59 pm

Everyone has their own tastes. I personally like tribal house. Alot of people don't like "edm" because it's very formula oriented and quantized so heavily. Alot of times it lacks "human feel".

Good point. The most common complaint by non-EDM listeners is... "It all sounds the same." Or... "It just goes, thump thump thump."

Well, when I listen to EDM.... I don't even hear the beat, really. The beat itself is like a metronome. It's like your own heartbeat. It's constant, and it's there... but it's not the focus. Your heart never stops beating as long as you are alive, yet you almost never notice it. You focus on other things. Listening to music for me is similar. I listen to the other elements.

It is true that dance music is very formulaic... but that is not by accident. It has to be. That's HOW it can be dance music. To be able to dance in sync with a piece of music, you have to be able to anticipate the syncopation. If the music were all over the place, you couldn't move in time with it... unless you knew the song by heart beforehand.

It's not just house, trance, or whatever.... Look at ballroom dancing. The waltz (3/4), the foxtrot (4/4), the cha-cha.... they are all repetitive, formulaic styles.... for the exact same reason. You have to be able to anticipate the beat, and move your body in-time.

I would agree, however... that most people do not like formulaic music... at least they THINK they don't like it. That is why not many people like classical music. It too, is seen as formulaic.

But the truth of the matter is.... the music they do like is probably every bit as formulaic as any EDM... they just don't realize it. Maybe they like rap music. Well, guess what.... it's formulaic. It's actually a form of EDM. It's dance music, and it's produced electronically... so it's not that different from house music in that respect. The difference that most people lock onto is that rap has lyrics... and that is what they focus on. Or maybe they don't like rap, but they like rock. Well, chances are they're listening to rock music with lyrics. Lyrics give people a focus. They instantly define a song in their minds. They also give a narrative. You can learn what a song is about by listening to the lyrics.

With EDM, the lyrics are not always there. So as a listener, you don't have that intended focal point to draw your attention. This is where my listening style takes over for me.... and I focus on the other elements. The song might begin to make me imagine what it is about. Maybe the song will trigger some old memory... or I can visualize some image or something that I associate with it. But, I guess that not all people have the same listening style as I do... and for them, they just hear the beat. They can't draw their focus away from the beat, unless there's some lyrics. Or they can't figure out the point of a song without a narrative.

Many people simply can't see how a song can tell a story without lyrics. But look at a Beethoven symphony..... and then you can see how that's not true. You can take music history classes dedicated to this very concept. Music without lyrics can be every bit as expressive, sometimes more so, than music with lyrics.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:40 pm

I don't buy it. hip hop has much more variation in the beats than EDM, and rhythmic structure is a big part of music. Metronomic beats shouldn't be the norm in entire genres IMO, it should be for effect, occasionally.

Hey, I'm not big on hip Hop, more into industrial, IDM. breakcore, and rock/metal.
All I'm saying is there is a lot of room for improvement in dance music as it stands today in the realm of drums and rhythmic structure.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:55 pm

i kinda hear what you're saying machines, but why change a formula that works?
people dance to what you refer to as "oonze oonze" so why would i, as a dance music producer do something else?

I blame the audience for the mediocrity of beats in "EDM," not the producers.

of course, this is part of why i'm not that interested in EDM. I've done it already, i was a raver about a million lifetimes ago. Now, i don't mind dancing to good four on the floor stuff every once in a blue moon at a happening event, but I'd never listen to it at home.

.lm.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:28 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:i kinda hear what you're saying machines, but why change a formula that works?

True enough, I didn't expect any change though. The question was why do some people not like EDM, and that's my answer, because it's not dreative enough in the rhythimic department.
What I'd like to see, and occasionally you hear, is a little more variation in the kinds of beats used, that's all. I don't expect it, so I don't end up at dance clubs that often, and if I do, it's not for the music.

dj_wubwub · Post by **dj_wubwub** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:18 pm

I think the thing that has wrecked it for me has been the genre splittling of EDM over the years (prog house/tech house/psytrance/breaks/whatever) so you to to some clubs/parties and insert genre of your choice is the only thing you will hear. A lot of DJs only get 1 ot 2 hours to do a set so they tend to play their most banging tunes so what is played at 1am and 5am doesn't differ.
Bring back variety in clubs but are the punters ready for it.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:56 pm

A few things to mention...

1) I think a lot of people dis on trance/EDM/4x4 music because there are waaaay more crappy DJ's in these styles than good DJ's. As mentioned above, there is some incredible music coming out these days, especially in psytrance and progressive trance genres, IMO, but I rarely hear DJ's spinning the really good stuff. "Genre" and "generic" share the same root....the more genre-specific the music, the more likely it is to be generic. I personally enjoy music that is hard to pigeonhole the most.

2) People interpret trance/EDM according to the standards of other music they are more familiar with. Trance is not rock, it's not hip-hop, it's not jazz....it's trance. Thus, there are certain characteristics that define trance music as trance music. You don't go to a trance party expecting to hear a bunch of variation in the kick drum, just like you don't go to a hiphop show and get annoyed that someone is on the mic all the time, or that the tempo is too slow, or that everyone is dry-humping on the dancefloor. I just played the elctronic-music stage of a major jam-band festival in Kansas, and heard lots of jam-band kids complaining that the "techno music" all sounds the same. Well, I listened to about 20 different jam-bands, and they almost all sounded exactly the same to me. The same guitar tones, the same rhythms, the same hippie-shuffle dance going on....but to people that are into it, they hear all the variations that make the scene rich.

3) Sometimes trance/EDM is just not the person's cup of tea. I just had a discussion with a friend who doesn't like trance, and she said the kick drum is a heartbeat to her, but it's waay faster than her heartbeat, so it stresses her out. She says it's just not her rhythm. I feel exactly the same about music that runs at less than 130 bpm....it's just too slow. For that reason, I find it hard to get into most hiphop, downtempo, jamband music, etc.

4) There's a certain experience to listening to trance music that changes everything about listening to it. The first rave I went to, I was going crazy hating the never-ending 4-on-the-floor kick, until about 4 in the morning when all of a sudden I "got it" and started dancing like a madman....something about the consistency of that kick makes my brain start producing some fun chemicals or something....it's like the never-ending repetition of the tide, or day/night, or whatever. At this point, just hearing the "oonze oonze" makes me a happy camper! So I think most people that dis trance/EDM haven't had that kind of experience with it, and so eventually they end up hating it because they don't "get it".

I think this thread is great, btw...always a topic I love discussing.

For some cutting-edge/unusual psytrance, check out...
Scozbor
Sensient
Psykovsky
Derango
Bus
Ghreg on Earth

For excellent old-school classics check out...
Hallucinogen
KoxBox

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:55 pm

hip hop has much more variation in the beats than EDM, and rhythmic structure is a big part of music. Metronomic beats shouldn't be the norm in entire genres IMO, it should be for effect, occasionally.

We obviously know what your opinion is, but I'll just take it as that. Your opinion.

Frankly, I don't see hip-hop as being very musical.... and I think it is all about the same tired ghetto cliches... be it killing other rappers, or fucking "bitches and ho's", or money and cars and various "bling".... I also think that hip-hop music is a bad influence on children. I think it glamourizes violence and promotes racism. But that's just my opinion.... and you can take it as just that.

I don't claim to be right (because many will certainly disagree), but that's just what I think. So I don't listen to it, and I don't go places that play it, and I don't support it in any way. But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a musical evangelist. I don't try to convert people.

I do understand what you are saying about hip-hop music displaying more variations in syncopation. But don't forget, hip-hop is all 4/4 too. And I think there is a lot more rhythmic variation in house and progressive music than you might be aware, or care to admit. It's just a question of finding good music within a genre.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:25 pm

subterFUSE wrote:
hip hop has much more variation in the beats than EDM, and rhythmic structure is a big part of music. Metronomic beats shouldn't be the norm in entire genres IMO, it should be for effect, occasionally.

We obviously know what your opinion is, but I'll just take it as that. Your opinion.

Frankly, I don't see hip-hop as being very musical.... and I think it is all about the same tired ghetto cliches... be it killing other rappers, or fucking "bitches and ho's", or money and cars and various "bling".... I also think that hip-hop music is a bad influence on children. I think it glamourizes violence and promotes racism. But that's just my opinion.... and you can take it as just that. I don't claim to be right (because many will certainly disagree), but that's just what I think. So I don't listen to it, and I don't go places that play it, and I don't support it in any way. But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a musical evangelist. I don't try to convert people.

I do understand what you are saying about hip-hop music displaying more variations in syncopation. But don't forget, hip-hop is all 4/4 too. And I think there is a lot more rhythmic variation in house and progressive music than you might be aware, or care to admit. It's just a question of finding good music within a genre.

There is lots of good hip hop out there that doesn't necessarily get played on the radio or tv, and thus not in the clubs where people want to hear the nelly song that they know. I hear where you are coming from about most mainstream stuff, but there is good stuff out there that isn't as predictable musically and lyrically, its just not as easy to find. I'm sure the same goes for edm--there's boring stuff that doesn't take chances and follows the recipe, and then there's stuff that takes chances and is more innovative.

I like ethios4's point #2 above--sometimes it just comes down to what you like in general--the more you listen to certain styles of music, the more you can pick up on what is quality and unique, and what is stale and bland. Anyhow, some of my favorite "non-gangsta" hip hop albums are Ty "Upwards", The Grouch "Crusader for Justice", and Little Brother "The Minstrel Show"--all three are diverse musically, employ either live instruments or great samples off old soul records, good beats, and thought-provoking, non-gangsta lyrics. Sadly, it seems that the general public either wants or accepts the mainstream hip hop crap that is fed to them, but fortunately there is still a wealth of quality stuff out there.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:51 am

Trance sucks cause Breakcore and Tech-Step pwns it.
never mind the rhetoric as to why, I'm just here to take a piss.

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:48 am

Trance sucks cause Breakcore and Tech-Step pwns it.
never mind the rhetoric as to why, I'm just here to take a piss.

That's OK.... just don't splatter the seat.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:18 am

Everybody has really good points on this, that's cool.

Hey, I'm not against a pounding beat, all I'm saying is it would be nice if it were messed up a bit. A friend of mine is all about the drums on any record, and he got me into Sphongle, though the linear notes are full of shit in the same way that 50 cent is, I like some of it. Infected mushroom are pretty cool, etc..

But, here we are, I'm doing IDM/Industrial, and I assume some of you are doing Trance etc.I certainly don't want to ply Industrial that sounds like the groups out right now, and I hope you guys don;t want to play Trance that sounds generic.

We get to shape the future if we happen to play some songs that hit it with people, we get to take our entire genre of music to a different level if we want to. It's possible that some of you put some sweet ass breaks into your next trance song, it's possible we change what is becoming cliche into something new.

I'm as inspired by Wu Tang Clan, and Sphongle, as I am by NIN, that's all.

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:23 am

Alot of trance has breakbeats (admittedly, not throughout the entire track, but that's why it's called trance, not breakbeat) in it... even PVD uses breakbeats..

BTW.. i love Shpongle.. they fuckin rule...

Spikee · Post by **Spikee** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:28 am

djsentinel wrote:This topic is here to explore why people here at this forum don't like EDM, trance as the most hated. And please give legit reasons. No "its too repetitive or I don't like it."

This is sure to be fun

Pce,
DJS

The genre I appreciate the least is Trance, but only because I find it to be the least challenging of the various genres available. That, and it's turned into such a flowery, predictable genre. Get yourself the new Oakenfold mix or the Tiesto mix and congratulations, you've just familiarized yourself with about 95% of the whole collection of modern trance offerings. A twinkly pad, a cinematic and contrite melody, a thumping bassline... that's all it is.

FWIW, I respect all forms of music because I know that my tastes are exclusive to myself and there's someone out there having an epiphany and creaming their shorts to whatever mix ATB's just dropped, and that's what music is all about.

But then again, aside from Boards Of Canada and various trip-hop, my electronic listening has dwindled to nil. But that's what happens when a genre stagnates. Christ, even hip-hop has some diamonds in the rough...v

Why do you hate EDM? "House, Trance, Techno"

Re: Why do you hate EDM? "House, Trance, Techno"