[OT] - Making money

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:02 pm

Good point Angstrom. I'm so used to working for the man and calculating my earnings in an hourly sense, but as mentioned above, one-off contract labor jobs can come sporadically and might not add up to a lot over the course of a year. Gotta keep the bigger picture in mind.

I've got a lot of planning and work to do for me to be able to jettison the regular job. Once that job is gone I'll have to start paying taxes to be legit, which means $1400 suddenly turns into around $1100.

To that end, I'm reducing my expenses as much as possible so I can live on as little as possible. I will also save up a large buffer to sustain myself while making the transition. It will be hard to lose the job I have now since I get nice health insurance and I'm about to get a substantial raise....but really there's nothing they could pay me to buy out my peace of mind and love for working with audio. Gold chains is still chains, right?

But I think there's a lot of work out there for someone with skills, it's just a matter of getting in touch with the people that have the money and the need for what I have to offer. I'm not too picky as long as it's audio and it pays well....I don't mind dressing nice and being a professional about it, especially if I'm working for myself!

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:01 pm

hambone1 wrote:
Meef Chaloin wrote:"IF there is a market" for skills...well what if there isnt?
IMO, if you truly believe that what you do is really that good, you'll make a market for it.

i dont even know what my 'skills' are...i mean i know i can make & engineer music but i wouldnt know where to start 'selling' myself.

i dont know, this thread just came across to me as one of those 'if you think positively every morning you life will be perfect' kind of threads without giving any real practical advice. Lie i know that i could probably do something with my knowledge/expertise/qualifications but what..well i have no idea & being a shy quiet & largly solitary person completely hinders the idea of going to a gig & networking. at the moment i can think of no ways whatsoever of going out & getting a music job with enough money to live on. Im very open to hearing how people do though!!

im not defending working 9-5 cos i fuking hate it but i cant see any way of creating an opportunity that will enable me to live from the proceeds. and saying think positively or if you believe enough then it will happen, is just pipedreams to me, ive had that before with bands where ive thought if we work hard enough we will make it....but the world doesnt work like that, opportunities present themselves to certain people in certain positions.

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:13 pm

You're right - there's lots of hard work and some not-so-fun bits. I'm sure others can offer more practical advice.

IMO, visualizing your business, and how people will want to pay you for doing what you do, is crucial. I'm sure there have been millions of businesses started just because someone either had a talent for doing something, and/or liked doing it. But if nobody wants it, it's a white elephant, unless you really like the 'starving artist' routine.

Saving to ride the transition period is probably necessary for most of us. I spent over a year with minimal income and LOTS of spending (and wasting!) before I made a penny. I sold my beloved VW camper van, eBayed everything I could, took out a business loan, maxxed out my credit card, and depleted my savings and investments.

But I knew I had to ditch the 9-5 thing before I regretted it.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:28 pm

ethios4 wrote: I've got a lot of planning and work to do for me to be able to jettison the regular job. Once that job is gone I'll have to start paying taxes to be legit, which means $1400 suddenly turns into around $1100.

don't forget that any and every piece of music-related gear you buy is tax deductable--from blank cds, hard drives, midi controllers, computers, RAM, concert tickets, any and all (gas, food, lodging, airplane tix) travel expenses to concerts (yours or other peoples'), instruments, web hosting and design, softward, hardware--anything. I claim the coupla gees I make a year in cash on music just so I can deduct the amount of money I spend on music related things. Also, if you have old gear you've never claimed on taxes, you can do what's called "place into service", where you take the current market value of the gear and deduct that from your taxable income (you can obviously only do this once for any item). I think you only have to claim $500 a year of income from music to deduct any and everything you spend money on related to it, so you could claim some of your income but not straight cash payments for gigs. Basically, the way I look at it (while my wife rolls her eyes) is that any piece of music related gear I buy is 33% off--if I spend $2000 on a new bass, that's $2000 of my income the government can't touch, that's $600 of taxes I don't pay, not to mention possibly lowering my overall tax bracket. fwiw, this is all legit, I got this advice from my CPA and have been claiming as such on my taxes for years.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:27 am

[re-posted from another money-related thread, still relevant I think]

I've been lucky enough to call myself a full-time musician since 1989, but I'd describe it as having a spread portfolio of dodgy occupations.

Half of my living comes from my band which is reasonably well established in NZ. We are on our third album and can reliably make money touring in NZ and Australia and thru album sales (we licence our stuff to a small NZ indie label and regularly get tracks on compilations around the world). The other half of my living comes thru producing for other bands, remixes, engineering, occasional film and TV music, occasional MIDI teching and tuition, music for arts/contemporary dance projects, and the odd jingle. I'm by no means rich, but I make a living.

In a small country like NZ (4 million people) Its pretty much impossible to live off any single one of these fields. I have to accept the musical equivalent of Mcjobs (aerobics video soundtrack, anyone?) along with joy of working with people who's talent and spirit I truly admire.

Even before the internet (which lets face it, is still in the flickering silent-movie era) theres been lots of changes in the industry and as such changes in what I can or can't earn money from. For example playing keyboards in pub covers bands - these got supplanted in the 90s by the DJ [DJs as the 21st century equivalent of the covers band - don't get me started ] I used to get work doing programming for rock bands - now everybody has their own computer and does a lot of their pre-production themselves. I used to be the "secret vocal fixer" - then AutoTune came out. The jingles market has always been something you really have to go hard in, play the whole bullshit game and hang out with people whose values I personally find abhorrent and frightening if you want to make the Big Money there.

So, back to the "music industry" in all its wierd (and sometimes wonderful) forms. I think to make money from music these days you have to be a bit of a polymath. At least until you get high enough up any particular tree to specialize.

Perhaps basing your approach on the skills you have accquired over the years, rather than just thinking about "music" is the way to go. Composing music is a skill, recording audio is a skill, playing or performing any instrument is a skill, operating computer software is a skill etc. Any one of these "skills" has people at the top of their tree making great money and living the lifestyle they choose. For the rest of us there's the spread portfolio of dodgy occupations.

just my 2c...

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:06 am

Although it's not everything, I think education plays a big part, too. My son is starting his final year at university doing a Music with Computer Sound Design degree, and already has job offers for when he finishes. Music is all he's wanted to do since he was a fetus.

Knowledge is power...

dhilsabeck · Post by **dhilsabeck** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:17 pm

quandry wrote: don't forget that any and every piece of music-related gear you buy is tax deductable--from blank cds, hard drives, midi controllers, computers, RAM, concert tickets, any and all (gas, food, lodging, airplane tix) travel expenses to concerts (yours or other peoples'), instruments, web hosting and design, softward, hardware--anything. I claim the coupla gees I make a year in cash on music just so I can deduct the amount of money I spend on music related things. Also, if you have old gear you've never claimed on taxes, you can do what's called "place into service", where you take the current market value of the gear and deduct that from your taxable income (you can obviously only do this once for any item). I think you only have to claim $500 a year of income from music to deduct any and everything you spend money on related to it, so you could claim some of your income but not straight cash payments for gigs. Basically, the way I look at it (while my wife rolls her eyes) is that any piece of music related gear I buy is 33% off--if I spend $2000 on a new bass, that's $2000 of my income the government can't touch, that's $600 of taxes I don't pay, not to mention possibly lowering my overall tax bracket. fwiw, this is all legit, I got this advice from my CPA and have been claiming as such on my taxes for years.

informative post. thanks!

jerry123 · Post by **jerry123** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:39 pm

I agree with everything said in this thread.

deckme(N)tal · Post by **deckme(N)tal** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:44 pm

and what if someones discovers that wants to live with music only at 30 and without any academic musical background??? as me...

i feel like i understood this too late...

jerry123 · Post by **jerry123** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:48 pm

In a world of 15 year old dot com millionares and 40 year old grocerie boys, it's never to late.
You can do whatever you WANT.

Paul Nolan · Post by **Paul Nolan** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:42 am

this post is amazing

here i am sittin here at 2:30am trying to manufacture what alcoholics might call 'a moment of clarity' about what i'm doing and where im going with my life, and boom, it lands on my lap in the form of this thread

its truely comforting to know that i'm not the only person in this situation. i have a decent job, and at the moment i'm leading the double life, working all day and going to college at night doing audio engineering at SAE, and when i'm finished i need to make the jump

thats the cool thing about what i'm doing at college, there are quite a few areas i could go into. live sound would be cool as i love the idea of life on the road touring, sound design for computer games would be another i'd be interested in, but freelance engineering would be the ultimate aim, facilitating musicians and artists in their musical aims would be an amazing way to earn a living.

and it is all down to networking. i've done a lot in my 26 years, i've ran my own record shop, i've ran club tours abroad, i've done production management in the UK, but i've yet to find something that would be truely worthwhile in the sense of earning a living and really committing to it

its a shame because in the UK, and in places like London and Liverpool particularly it's so heinously back stabbing that you almost lose the will to live. i know everyone there is to know in liverpool virtually. and i've learnt that its basically a closed shop.

i'm just sick of seeing the same ol faces in the same ol places, stabbing people in the back in just the same way as they have been for years.

so i decided to do something about it. i dont make a habit of wishing my life away but the next 18 months until i finish college and get out of liverpool and possibly the UK completely could not pass quickly enough.

these skills that im learning at the moment are high value, but it's about extracting the full worth of those skills, and to me that is heavily dependent on networking, and also location.

but its also other people having the right attitude towards you, and i'm afraid where i'm from people are too busy either trying to screw you over or keeping their cards too close to their chests.

so in short i suppose its make sure take your opportunities when they come, and you can always do something about your situaiton!

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:54 pm

I'm a firm believer in fate, but with two caveats.

First, you make your own fate. Sitting around doing nothing, or bitching about how much better things could be without doing anything about it, won't work. Nobody's gonna come knocking on your door offering you your dream job.

Secondly, forcing something that's not meant to be won't work, either.

I also believe the key to happiness and success in your career is only achievable by fulfilling three criteria. First, you need to be doing something you really love. Secondly, you have to be good at it, and finally, it has to be a product or service that others want. It is really easy to achieve two of the criteria, but fulfilling all three is the secret to success, IMHO.

Enough philosophy... back to work!

funk313 · Post by **funk313** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:17 pm

Machinate wrote:The beauty of modern society is that extreme specialization such as our can actually find its place. Making money doing weird shit is great!

yeah and BEiNg weird 2! I some times laf my ass of how weird and crazy I can
be because of what im doing..I mean its allmost expected!! I love it. its a real
privilege

BeyondReazon · Post by **BeyondReazon** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:43 pm

hambone1 wrote:Absolutely! You only have one shot at this life, so make the best of it.

I am SO glad to be out of the f*cked-up 37.5 hour week office design studio mentality, working with a bunch of gray, back-stabbing lemmings who shuffle to work and back Monday-Friday, and exist until retirement.

My objective was to turn the work week around. I'm now working weekends, have the week off, do things the way I want to when I want to, and make over twice as much having a blast at what I'm doing.

Anyone can master their own destiny. Those artists who choose to starve, and those who choose the 40-hour-work-week existence, make that choice.

This is exactly where my head is at now. Currently in a 45 hour-a-week day job and after about 4 years have paid back most of my student debt and built up a half decent studio. But, my job is slowly killing me, I have gradually lost focus in what I want to achieve with music as time has gone on. There are a few routes that I can go down (writing music, recording demos etc etc..)but the one that I'm really enthusiastic about is using live.

The idea of using this software to dj and earn money that way completely appeals to me, even if the money isn't that much, it's the idea of enjoying what you do.

Everyone has bills to pay and commitments so how hard is it to make the transition to 'freelance' contracts and financial instability? Bearing in mind I have no concrete business plans, no website yet etc... it's best to have a plan right?! But I've saved up a bit of money to help through the transition......

Hambone: I'm intereted in what your day job was and what exactly you do now?

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:39 pm

I've had a few day jobs in my life... I can't seem to hold one down! I also have a low boredom threshold...

I spent 11 years as a fighter pilot in the US Air Force. I then ran my own print prepress/reprographic business for 6 years, before getting into graphic design, which I did for 4 years.

I became interested in VJing, and after being made redundant from my graphic design job a year ago, decided that I had to ditch the gray M-F 9-5 lemming existence. Now I do private and corporate DJ/VJing, with all of the sequencing and control of live surround audio, video, cameras, lighting, live percussion, and audience interaction done in Live. I'm working two days a week, and enjoying life the other five.((I realize that 99% of the folks on this forum would rather perforate their eardrums with an icepick than do private/corporate work, but it works for me.)

It hasn't been easy. I spent an unpaid year researching, learning, and rehearsing. I had to take out a business loan, and liquidate investments, savings, and borrow against my life insurance to get through the transition. I sold my 4x4 (used too much gas anyway), and even had to sell my beloved 1979 VW camper. A bit of freelance work helped, too.

But now it's paying off. I've got 17 bookings this year at £800-1,000 a pop, and next year is already filling up. And I love working for myself. I do what I want to do when I want to do it. And now that my partner is getting just as involved as I am, we're having a blast playing out (apart from the unavoidable 4-5 hours of setup and breakdown).

You only get one shot at life. Go for it!