(ot) HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY AMERICANS!

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:53 am

Hope all of my fellow Americans are enjoying the fourth.

American Military Casualties in Iraq

American Deaths

Since war began (3/19/03):
Total: 2535 In Combat: 2048

Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03)
Total: 2398 In Combat: 1951

Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03):
Total: 2070 In Combat: 1742

Since Handover (6/29/04):
Total 1669 In Combat 1416

Since Election (1/31/05):
Total 1099 In Combat 931

American Wounded

Total Wounded:

18490 (Official)
20000 - 48100 (Estimated)

Latest Fatality July 3rd, 2006

Iraqi civillians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq:

Minimum: 38822
Maximum: 43251

Others

Other Coalition Troops 214

US Military Deaths - Afghanistan 308

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:52 am

The time that is spent hating our country could be better spent doing something positive. A lot of good has come from our country in the last few centuries. There is no reason to let the last 6 years paint a disproportionately bad image in our minds of our own country.

I highly reccomend checking out the new Al gore flick "An Inconvenient Truth." I t has given me some healthy fear and and recent hope. I like it because it adresses the reality of what is going on without reminding us sensitive Americans too many times that we are these evil, horrible creatures that are, albeit obliviously, consuming the entire planet.

The current administration and the vegetables that empowered it with their votes are like a bad natural disaster, and those of us who remmember what this country used to be, owe it to ourselves to defend it in the very same manner. I think I can take some time to respect what our country DID in the past. Of course I did spend the whole day praticing the first of many new intended languages as I pragmatically accept the fact that the conditon of the states is growing worse all of the time.

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:07 am

I agree with everything you said with the exception of the Al Gore movie. i can not comment because I have not seen it.

I'm not sure if you were generalizing or if maybe you were under the impression that I hate my country. If it was the latter let me assure you that I love my country, but I hate my government and the institutions that I believe are destroying my country.

What makes me sad is that those numbers I posted above are just numbers to a lot of people, not thousands and thousands of dead and maimed human beings. Ruined, ended, and shattered lives.

What makes me sad is that people really believe all of those dead americans died for their country. They didn't die for america, they died for the government and for big business.

What makes me sad is when people believe that hating ones government is equal to hating ones country.

jackmazzotti · Post by **jackmazzotti** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:07 am

I had an awesome fourrth
best fireworks ive seen so far in boston
I LOVE AMERICA!!!!!

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:07 am

LOFA wrote:The time that is spent hating our country could be better spent doing something positive. A lot of good has come from our country in the last few centuries. There is no reason to let the last 6 years paint a disproportionately bad image in our minds of our own country.

I highly reccomend checking out the new Al gore flick "An Inconvenient Truth." I t has given me some healthy fear and and recent hope. I like it because it adresses the reality of what is going on without reminding us sensitive Americans too many times that we are these evil, horrible creatures that are, albeit obliviously, consuming the entire planet.

The current administration and the vegetables that empowered it with their votes are like a bad natural disaster, and those of us who remmember what this country used to be, owe it to ourselves to defend it in the very same manner. I think I can take some time to respect what our country DID in the past. Of course I did spend the whole day praticing the first of many new intended languages as I pragmatically accept the fact that the conditon of the states is growing worse all of the time.

i have to bring up the obvious point, and that is that america engaged in genocide to get this country, slavery to build it, imperialist meddling in other countries (think central and south america) and countless wars to ensure its economic and military might.

i can't be too impressed with the track record so far...sorry man...

glu · Post by **glu** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:19 am

But in all reality, you should watch The dreams of Sparrows filmed by 5 different Iraqi filmmakers about the U.S./European -occupied Iraq... from many different social angles. Very good, and yes of course, it is very fucked up over there. You get to see the other side of Falluja, not what you read in the papers or see on corporate-owned news stations.

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:30 am

DJ Shiva: Well, as far as barbaric conquerers are concerned, we have, until recently, pretty much set the standard for what it means to be humanitarian. With regards to the steps it took to get there, the world pretty much lived in a state of nature, not far from the dark ages then. The again, a good portion of the world still pretty much does now, we just don't admit it to ourselves. Try imagining some other large competing economic superpowers as the "big bully". Few if any would have the restraint, imo that the US has.

BTW, me and my gf will be travelling around at the beginning of aug. If you are playing anywhere I want to try and catch another of your sets!

Smutek: I pretty much always on your side with this ruckus- I just want to clarify that for whatever evil barbarians we are, oover the last couple of hundred years or so we HAVE set the standard for humanitarianism (again IMO, and I am not usually so verbosely patriotic- consider it what you wil, I'm like

at myself right now!)

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:45 am

djshiva wrote:i have to bring up the obvious point, and that is that america engaged in genocide to get this country, slavery to build it, imperialist meddling in other countries (think central and south america) and countless wars to ensure its economic and military might.

i can't be too impressed with the track record so far...sorry man...

All of that was par for the course back then though. Really, the basic ideas that came up about freedom of speech, religion, etc. were really good though. Look around the planet in 1776, where would you want to be? and who had the most progressive government? Now, you could easily argue it's Europe that is leading the way, but then?

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:58 am

pretty much set the standard for what it means to be humanitarian

I think almost every minority, most notably black, chinese, and gay, will definitely disagree with that rhetoric...

If anything, the swiss and norse countries do that..

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:26 am

stinky wrote:
pretty much set the standard for what it means to be humanitarian
I think almost every minority, most notably black, chinese, and gay, will definitely disagree with that rhetoric...

If anything, the swiss and norse countries do that..

In theory anyway. Guy i know from Morocco stated he thought that Switzerland was beautiful, and that the swiss didn't deserve it. made to feel like a second class citizen at every turn there I guess. Just saying the US people aren't any more racist than europeans, that's all.

I agree that europe caught up and surpassed the US in forward thinking political practice though. We started some good ideas, but others have been more successful in implementing them.

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:43 am

LOFA wrote:DJ Shiva: Well, as far as barbaric conquerers are concerned, we have, until recently, pretty much set the standard for what it means to be humanitarian. With regards to the steps it took to get there, the world pretty much lived in a state of nature, not far from the dark ages then. The again, a good portion of the world still pretty much does now, we just don't admit it to ourselves.

Lofa - what the hell are you talking about??????

do you think the African Americans who got beaten at places like Berkeley as recently as the 60s would have seen it that way?

and you said a couple of hundred years - Lincoln didnt abolish slavery that long ago - and he got shot for it!

and what about the vietnam war?

Smutek raised the most important point here that the problem alot of people seem to have is the inability to seperate love for one's country from admitting there are faults with the government/big business etc - meaning you CAN love your country and still admit there are and have been problems with it

but the US setting the standard for humanitarianism? maybe some individuals in there, but not the big entity that is the USA by any stretch!

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:07 am

Just saying the US people aren't any more racist than europeans, that's all.

all you have to do is compare the penal system in these countries and you find that statement is inherently incorrect and out of proportion.

"A jail represents a microcosm of your community"

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:10 am

yeah - i know it's July 4th - but you can celebrate the good things about America without having to say it's better than others

astronmr20 · Post by **astronmr20** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:18 am

stinky wrote:
pretty much set the standard for what it means to be humanitarian
I think almost every minority, most notably black, chinese, and gay, will definitely disagree with that rhetoric...

If anything, the swiss and norse countries do that..

Ah yes... looking the other way while their neighboring countries were hacked to bits. Now THATS a beacon of humanitarianism. And isin't Iceland technically a norse country? Don't they actually BAN black people or something?

If it's racism we're talking about,

The world in general has a long way to go with racism. You woulden't have BELEIVED the racisim I saw and heard while in Costa Rica. Europe and the U.S. have a long way to go, too. Just ask ANY muslim who has tried to sit down at a cafe in Paris. Or actually tried to get a job there. Suddenly, the "racism" in the US is practiclly non-existant to what people face there.

Just sayin'.

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:23 am

Hmmm... ever notice that it's just about always Yanks and Brits arguing the New World Order?

Just an observation... draw your own conclusions.