Why are Live users music mostly a bit weird??

[Rx]

I finish tracks all the time using Logic or Cubase. I WANT to finish tracks using Live, but as th etune progresses I come to a standstill because I cant get my ideas in to Live. (I DONT USE PRERECORDED LOOPS) well I do, but not as much as I suspect others do.

if you don't use loops, why are you bothering with Live? i use Live with my own loops so i can perform my tracks live. you're wasting your time and ours posting some pointless shit. stick to your usual sequencer and keep reaching for that 10%.

merry fucking christmas.

[Guest]

I CANT GET THEH SONG FINISHED

If I wrote experimental music, I know I could finish them because theres not much to it at all.

If I played in a band with real instruments I could happily finish a track.. I know I could.

LOL, no offense but who are you kidding? 'Not much to it at all'...then go and do it, do it better than all the others, travel the world, make some money. As for 'real instruments' and 'I know I could'...again, no offense, but are you really as naive as you sound? Back to work there ace!!

why would anyone want to make music that he/she is not inspired to do, even if there was not much to it at all? i bet most live users could actually make very interesting experimental work to some extent. works the other way too. i know that after listening to a bunch of europop hits and giving the project a 12 months i could make a killer cheesy pop song that would have no content whatsoever. but why would i want to? why waste your time and energy on something that doesn't really inspire you?

sammy

[::mic-minimal::]

Guest, I mean you no disrespect and hope your musical endeavors make a quick turn around, music is just one of those things that doesn't lend its methods to being defined scientificly very well, thank goodness for that right but I have to ask you, you know Live is just a sequencer, I've read
your post several times just to make sure I understand you and I guess I don't really understand.
Live is just an audio sequencer, but most of your gripes with the music that you've listened to by live users has been about their individual choices. Experimental, less traditional, and in addition to that some of your
complaints should be directed at the persons 'recording experience' rather
than Live. No matter what you use hardware or software if your recording skills are not on par with a proffesional level it's going to be heard in your music but still that is not an issue with Live.

I also see that you lean towards not using samples, again that has nothing
to do with Live, there are no samples in live, no presets, Live is not a rompler, I hope i'm not sounding insulting I know that you know all of these things already and that's why I'm having a hard time understanding you. Expecting anything out of live except that it will be a blank canvas for
you is expecting too much. Live doesn't know whether you are using a sample or whether you are recording your own music into it. good luck with your music and please respond.

[noisetonepause]

Yep, its weird. again, no offence but this again is an example of what I mostly hear Live users doing.

Thats simply basic stripped down, no frills music that could be done on any DAW. With Live I reckon it just means its easier for your to fo more.

Next!

Nope. I couldn't have made these tracks without Live. Not that it wouldn't be technically possible, but they wouldn't have come about without elastic audio and the much overlooked but pretty damned awesome arrange view. So you're wrong, basically...

I still don't think it's that experimental. Just cos I'm singing over a dance track and giving it a chorus doesn't mean it's weird or new (I never thought I'd be taking *this* side of that argument!)

As for my music lacking the extra 10% you talk about, I agree. But they're partially to found in improving my musicianship, partially in higher technical quality in the recordings, mixing and mastering. And switching over to Cubase or Logic isn't going to help as much as a better audio card, an analogue desk and a Lexicon would. I'm not fussed though. In short, I'm quite sure you're missing the point...

Merry christmas (in spite of everything!)
-Paws

[poookie]

Hey its no big deal. If you dont understand what I mean then why bother.

OK, how about another way of putting

More accesible!

Less difficult to listen to

Less self indulgent


did you ever think that maybe why Live is the way it is for you (10%),is because the original designers cant play two notes on a piano and the same goes for most users?

[qchapter]

Hey its no big deal. If you dont understand what I mean then why bother.

OK, how about another way of putting

More accesible!

Less difficult to listen to

Less self indulgent

I understand exacly what you are saying... because I spend all my working hours listening to people talking with their buttholes; which is obviously the orifice you're speaking through.


Live, like all other instruments, is just a creative tool. What is created with it is strictly, unarguably in the hands of the creative mind sitting behind the CRT/TFT. You don't hear guitarists whining that their Les Paul is lacking some unexplainable 10% that's keeping them from stardom.

Anywho, good luck with your music. I hope someday soon your mind will expand, and you will realize that instruments don't make great music... people do.

-Kevin

[Mic-minimal]

pookie is it?,
I took valuable time that I could've spent using live to respond to your post, I was genuinely curious about where you're coming from that's why 'I bothered', I think I made myself pretty clear but you responded with probably the most 'subjectivity' since your first post.


you wrote:

OK, how about another way of putting

More accesible!

Less difficult to listen to

Less self indulgent


It doesn't get more subjective than that, the things you're saying really can't be applied to any program or instrument, I think thats why people are giving you the cold shoulder. There are people here like myself, who play guitar, bass, drums, and others who've been playing piano and keys most of their life i'm talking years on end as well as turntablist, samplist, and loopslingers. Live isn't anything but a blank sheet of paper until any of them puts music into it, why are you finding fault with live rather within
the concertos and sonatas that you can play into it? Live is a tape recorder, your music should sound like it does when you are not recording
but with recording enabled.

[pookie]

hey, hey , slow down i wasnt the one who wrote that... i just quoted the guy who started this thread, and i was hoping to justify his ridiculous post by affirming his snobbish reasoning by saying that maybe its so experimental to him is that most people i guess dont really play any instruments who make experimental music.

[m m]

oh, sorry about that pookie, so original guest why don't you chime in.

[The Master]

Ive been reading this thread with interest and I tend to agree somewhat with the original poster. Now before you all start throwing furniture around the room in disgust at my agreement with Guest, I have to say that I understand Exactly where hes coming from. Whatever way you guys want to cook it up Live while being an amazing tool to use within compositions it does fall on its ass (slightly) in some areas.................. Live is basically A Loop Player with some arranging and mixing abilities.

But what Live does very well is encourage a thousand guys to 'Sound The Same'..........and guess what..............The music that Ive heard from Live users is 99%Eclectic, Weird. very Left Of Centre, Avant Garde, experimental or whatever else you might wish to call it.

Live doesnt really encourage musicianship imo (except if you use it as a tape machine and strum your guitar!!!). What I think Live (and similiar apps) will do is create a new breed of composers. Some good, but ihmo most bad. Just because someone can string together a tune thesedays using all that powerful software apps available doesnt mean they have to let us all hear it by launching a label and building a website...........It certainly doesnt mean these people are talented in any way
. My granny could drag a few loops in to Clips and press Play.........and lets face it, there is a lot of 'Avant Garde' going around thesedays. And dare I say it......some of it is rated as experimental when its really just Plain Bad.

OK, lets say I have written and mixed a track. Im 90% there but I need that Elusive 10%. You think Im going to find that certain something by searching my hard drive for some neatly pre-sequenced and pre-recorded vocal, synth, drum loops etc. NO, that 10% is the crucial part of any song. At that point I really have to get the thinking hat on and this could also be the section/line that takes longer than all the summed parts I have already. This is the point I cant use Live and then have to get the other gear fired up and ;look for that extra 10% from one of my outboard synths or virtual ones.................Yes, sure I could probably find a pre-recorded loop that would fit with my track, and if im really really lucky it might just be the icing on the cake for the track. However, this hasnt happened to me one single time when I use Live. Maybe I have no experience eh?..........................Nah, 150(ish) records later I think im fairly qualified to have a rough idea how to finish a track. And as I said I have to agree with the original posters point. Neither could I completely finish a track in Live that was anything but I can certainly get the basics of a Track within half an hour.

BUT, I can finish a track in Live if ITS:

Techno
Electro
Some House music!
Some trance stuff

and of course

Experimental!.........which guess what? I totally find the easiest Genre to make and FINISH. Do I belittle it NO, I simply state a fact from my own experience. Do I release it NO, I wouldnt want to upset any listeners . But to me it sounds the same as any other experimentalists stuff out there. I simply think its very easy stuff to make. I have a couple of chums that make and release experimental stuff. Neither of them can play a note, have very little talent (which the admit privately), BUT make some money pretending to be cool. Christ Im cynical Huh!


My comments have nothing to do with Live which Of course is a great piece of software, it also has some shortcomings (midi being the main one) But its some of its users who may need to think "does the world need another experimentalist"

[dpel]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Mic-minimal]

the master wrote:

"My comments have nothing to do with Live which Of course is a great piece of software, it also has some shortcomings (midi being the main one) But its some of its users who may need to think "does the world need another experimentalist"

dude you missed the point entirely, nothing wrong with your post mind you
it just missed the point, we and the mystery guest haven't been discussing
the merrits of Loops in music today, my whole point has been what you said at the end of the post, your comments and the 'guest' comments have nothing to do with live. the guest thinks live is suppose to do something for him besides being a tape recorder, which doesn't make any sense since it's a taperecorder/ sampler/ but not a play anything for you create anything for you decide what to put in it program. don't get off track I'm still trying to find out why this guy/gal is blaming Live for how his
music sounds and he hasn't said anything that makes sense yet, everything he listed was some artistic subjective reason with which he ended it by saying it's lives fault, even claiming that live users are not musicians. I suppose he is a musician so I'm wondering what is stopping him from recording his great piano, guitar, violin, or vocal piece because Live is not stopping anybody else. you don't see anybody blaming protools
do you? and thats just a taperecorder too. plug your instruments up or launch your virtual ones and start recording the music you play wtf?

[scotty]

......and lets face it, there is a lot of 'Avant Garde' going around thesedays. And dare I say it......some of it is rated as experimental when its really just Plain Bad.

:) That's funny... It goes the other way as well... Some poor-quality experimental music masquerades as "avant garde" or "academic".

Anyway, there are a lot of nice, affordable apps out there and music is getting easier and easier to make... which is great because a lot of new people are sharing their visions... Still, it feels like there is a lot of music out there that really could stand to go another 10% further. I think it would be great if people held themselves to a higher standard and took their pieces a little further before releasing them to the world.

For me, the elusive "10%" doesn't mean searching for some magical loop or new synth element that will be the icing on the cake. I'm not a musician so in my case, while adding more may obscure the deficiencies of the original material, it won't necessarily fix them. For me I find that the last 10% is more about polishing and refining what I already have. I'm still new to Live and right now I could imagine that I might reach for another DAW to try and take my material that last little bit... so I understand the original poster's dissatisfaction/puzzlement/whatever. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Live is fully capable of the kinds of tweaks I need I just haven't grown comfortable with working Live's way to achieve my ends. Maybe some day I'll feel fine finishing things in Live and maybe I won't... it doesn't really matter to me though... Live is just another tool (albeit an excellent one) to choose from and I apply it where it best suits my needs. To the original poster... does it really matter if Live can or can't take it that 10% for you? Is it important that it do so? or were you mostly just curious how it worked (or didn't) for others?

-scotty

[dpel]

i'm curious to know,
if you really beleived what you were saying...
why would you log in as Guest?
step up to the plate and identify thyself!
those are some bold generalizations you're making.

in all honesty, i feel you're close minded ( dare i say narrow minded?)
i use use live to fully realize my musical endevours and get complete satisfaction from it.
i've abandoned MIDI, don't miss it. live gives me more, because i can see what it offers and beyond. maybe , for the time being, you can't see those things.
one of the ways i make a living is by writting music for t.v. commercials.
and if you're familiar with that world you can't limit yourself
to one genre. you have to be prolific. you have to write a funk
cue when the picture asks for it. you have to write rock when the picture asks for it, electronica, jazz etc etc. you get my point
i use live exclusively for this.
"that missing 10 %" you've discovered might equate to a slight case of narrow mindedness. (for now) until maybe one day you'll have the opportunity to expose yourself to a more vast sampling of live compositions. (not just DJ, techno, whateverica etc etc.)

hey man, you asked for it.
regards,
dpel

[nick_maxwell]

This is a really interesting thread. I spend most of my time writing dark ambient and drone music, which is certainly considered "weird" or "inaccessible" by many people, so when I initially read this thread I was admittedly kind of irritated to read so many posts bashing experimental music. However, it is very true that there are a LOT more people writing and releasing stuff that is far from an accessible mainstream sound; there are no doubt many people that are not putting any "talent" into it, and simply riding the bandwagon.

However, I would like to say that there are some out there (I hope I am one of them) that do put feeling, emotion, thought, planning, etc. into music of this nature. Please do not write off this kind of music simply because it isn't pop, or "accessible." Additionally, be careful about defining "talent" as someone who knows some notes and can play a traditional instrument. This is where programs like Live come into the picture, and I believe this is what the original poster's question is addressing. Live is the first well-known looping and effecting environment with the options and streamlined interface that it features. It is not trying to emulate analog gear or any of that shit, instead favoring an efficient recording process. Because of this, one can go a lot further than just playing a guitar into a microphone and recording it over some drum breaks. Live just lends really well to making experimental music, and so many, many people are going to use it for that purpose. In short, the definition of "talent" is being forced to expand past simply having developed muscle memory and a keen understanding of music theory. A "talented" musician/producer must additionally have some sort of ability to put together an aesthetically pleasing piece of audio. I can read scales and chord progressions, but these alone mean shit if I have no sense of imagination, creativity, etc.

Anyway, I hope that all sounds somewhat feasible, and please do let me know what you think. This is a really interesting thread, and I can definitely agree with both sides of the debate in many ways.

- Nick