Difference between Sampler and Simpler - other than the $200

MrYellow · Post by **MrYellow** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:43 am

Yeah. People are making such a big deal out of this video support. Like it
took Ableton months to work on this instead of other stuff thats been
wished.

I'm not saying it took a long time to develop.... I can see it's just an insert
of the apple com object with a few lil hooks into it. Very simple. It's the
pandora's box of new features that will be requested is what worries me.

Personally I'm actually thinking of getting into video for live shows, however
this video support wouldn't help me at all. For starters it's quicktime which
I've had repeated bad experience with over the years, so I'd avoid it just
because of the file format.

So yeah video support is something I might even want to be interested in
using, but I doubt I'll be able to do much with it, so I like everyone else
would need the abes to spend heaps of time improving it. Heaps of time
they could be spending on actual productive stuff rather then duplicating
what other profession software does in the linear DAW+video area..... For
the non-linear approach there is also a lot of very good, very highly
developed products out there already on the market.

I'm thinking that if Ableton could include the Roland Variphrase technology,
you would be charging a hefty extra fee, correct?

Too right....

-Ben

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:45 am

elektrovert wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
Yeah. People are making such a big deal out of this video support. Like it took Ableton months to work on this instead of other stuff thats been wished.

It's really just very simply an audiotrack that plays video. 1 Video. Not a whole vj performance.

yeah, but why clutter up a perfectly decent program with fiddley stuff like that??

forge wrote:
but that is the point - they have come out and said more than once that video was probably the single most requested feature

there are so many people who would like to use live to compose for film/tv etc

As we speak I'm working on a sound design for a short video

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:58 am

You guys are funny.

You want us to not add feature X because you do not need it.
You want us to add feature X because you cannot work with out it.
You say feature X should have been in since ever.
You say we should better not add any new features but work on improving the exisitng ones.
You say we should not fukus on target group X
You say we should not become just another app for target group X
You say we forget the needs of target group X
You say you do not want to pay for X
You say you would pay for X if we do it instead of another X

Now replace X but *any* posssible detail, feature, plug in, synth, you have ever ever heard of, seen, did imagine in your whole life.

We read all this, we collect it, we spend some time in figuring out how much of this can be done within one release period and then we do this. It is like this since Live 1 and it will not change. The main difference is: we now read all this and stay relaxed because we know that what ever we do the reactions will be the same, just with other values of X.

Don`t get us wrong, we really try to make the product as good a possible but you should step back a bit and realise that we will never be able to satisfy everyone.
But that`s good, it keeps us busy.

Cheers, Robert

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:03 pm

elektrovert wrote:yeah, but why clutter up a perfectly decent program with fiddley stuff like that??

Since I don't have any quicktime videos on my computer, I have not tried out video tracks. I have not noticed they are there. There is not clutter.

You should note that we testers don't have a manual or a changelog besides the press release, so the only new features we know about are the ones that have been announced or the ones we happen to stumble over. If video playback wasn't among the announced features, I know I would have never noticed they're there. There is not mysterious performance hit, no extra buttons, no new track types, nought... So it can hardly be called clutter!

Like it or not there are people who don't use Live (exclusively) on stage, and some even prefer it when scoring. I know it's my favourite (only!) composition tool, so I wouldn't like to be forced to work in something else when I had to write for moving pictures... You might never have to, but hey, I don't particularly care about deleting clips from a MIDI controller, if you see what I mean...

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:05 pm

elektrovert wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
Yeah. People are making such a big deal out of this video support. Like it took Ableton months to work on this instead of other stuff thats been wished.

It's really just very simply an audiotrack that plays video. 1 Video. Not a whole vj performance.

yeah, but why clutter up a perfectly decent program with fiddley stuff like that??

Clutter? Fiddley? Have you tried it yet?

njh · Post by **njh** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:11 pm

Robert Henke wrote:You guys are funny.

You want us to not add feature X because you do not need it.
You want us to add feature X because you cannot work with out it.
You say feature X should have been in since ever.
You say we should better not add any new features but work on improving the exisitng ones.
You say we should not fukus on target group X
You say we should not become just another app for target group X
You say we forget the needs of target group X
You say you do not want to pay for X
You say you would pay for X if we do it instead of another X

Now replace X but *any* posssible detail, feature, plug in, synth, you have ever ever heard of, seen, did imagine in your whole life.

We read all this, we collect it, we spend some time in figuring out how much of this can be done within one release period and then we do this. It is like this since Live 1 and it will not change. The main difference is: we now read all this and stay relaxed because we know that what ever we do the reactions will be the same, just with other values of X.

Don`t get us wrong, we really try to make the product as good a possible but you should step back a bit and realise that we will never be able to satisfy everyone.
But that`s good, it keeps us busy.

Cheers, Robert

would you rather have us say "live is perfect and since ableton have reached perfection there is no need for anymore versions of live."

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:20 pm

No, of course not. It is quite essential to get all that feedback, this is why we are spending some time here reading it all. And we really seriously maintain a list where all wishes end up so we get not only a qualitative but also some kind of quantitive idea of your wishes. This is one reason why video playback is in now. The ratio between the time we had to invest and the number of request was very good.

So, if you really need a feature, go ahead, write about it, even if it has been said ten times before. Just be not too dissapointed if it is not in later. There might be reasons behind it which are more complex then it seems. ( Like we could change it with a dirty hack for the next version or we could change it together with some other things we need to improve later and then have the abillity to solve another bunch of wishes simulatiously as a side effect. )

Robert

chis · Post by **chis** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:22 pm

noisetonepause wrote:There is not mysterious performance hit, no extra buttons, no new track types, nought... So it can hardly be called clutter!

I'm glad someone has made this observation. Those who are making such complaints about extra features = clutter haven't realised that - looking at AdamJay's screenshots at least - there IS no clutter! Live still looks like the same old Live we're used to, just with a couple of extra icons in well-placed... uh, places!

If you don't need the features, don't buy the upgrade!

I do think the price for Sampler is a little steep, though perhaps the Abes are positioning it to compete with Kontakt, Halion, etc. ?

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:23 pm

MrYellow wrote: I just wanna pay for Live development, I want it better, I don't want addon
products, video, or new directions.... I want a LIVE INSTRUMENT, without any
bells or whistles, with the whole package being one all inclusive price.

Seeing as you've been a member here for a while, I imagine you remember all of the other features that people grumbled about in live. Remember the debates about midi? VSTi support? Operator? Altivec? Just to name a few.

Each of these features were staunchly opposed by more than a vocal few, but I guess people must have accepted them. I haven't seen anybody requesting for MIDI or VSTi support being removed.

Was it fair that the PC owners had to pay for any of the Altivec development work? That was certainly a wasted feature for a great many people, but it also made Live much more usable for Mac users. Ableton apparently believes that a lot of people are requesting, or will require video production tools in the future. Will the majority of the people use it? I bet most everybody at least tries it.

I also think you have been incredibly harsh on Ableton for making Sampler an add on product. I doubt they have a hat that they put all of their features into and draw stuff out to determine which features will be add-ons and which will be included in the main product. From a marketing perspective they likely know which other software they want to align Live against to try and gain market share. Likewise they probably know that many people already have an FM synth or Sampler, so they don't want to push that cost on to every consumer. How many potential customers would ableton lose if they included operator/sampler due to price increases?

I don't know that I am terribly excited about some of the new features myself, but I likely will upgrade because there is enough meat there to make it worth the investment. I'm not really sold on EIC or Sampler yet, but I also don't really have to commit to either of those purchases if I don't want to.

Anyway, good luck with your future decision about upgrading... and try not to let Live 6 bumm you out too much

elektrovert · Post by **elektrovert** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:26 pm

Machinate wrote:
elektrovert wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
Yeah. People are making such a big deal out of this video support. Like it took Ableton months to work on this instead of other stuff thats been wished.

It's really just very simply an audiotrack that plays video. 1 Video. Not a whole vj performance.

yeah, but why clutter up a perfectly decent program with fiddley stuff like that??
Clutter? Fiddley? Have you tried it yet?

no, I admit, I haven't.
but it's hardly gonna be any use for Live performance is it?
And isn't that what Live is supposed to be about?
I have more than enough things to be controlling on stage with Live without having to worry about video too.
I guess I'll just have to get used to the fact that Live is no longer strictly a Live performance tool.
Which I personally don't see as a good thing.

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:40 pm

The amount of users who are using Live exclusively on stage is too smal to make a company like Ableton survive unless Live would cost dramatically (!!!) more.
You can say the studio users keep Ableton alive and this allows you to benefit from the new features too. Sure Live did start with a new concept for performance but it was also clear to us that our approach will work for a lot of studio people too.
As others allready did point out, the possiblities of Live 6 on stage are absolutely amazing. I personally looking really forward adapting my live shows to it.
You will be convinced finally, i am 100% sure.

Robert

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:40 pm

elektrovert wrote:
no, I admit, I haven't.
but it's hardly gonna be any use for Live performance is it?
And isn't that what Live is supposed to be about?
I have more than enough things to be controlling on stage with Live without having to worry about video too.
I guess I'll just have to get used to the fact that Live is no longer strictly a Live performance tool.
Which I personally don't see as a good thing.

For how long has it been strictly a live performance tool? I've been a user since 1.5 and have been using it as my primary DAW and once in a while as a performance tool. Perhaps I missed out on all of this action from 1 -> 1.5 where you could only use live as a performance tool.

I agree with you that the video support seems half (okay quarter) baked from a performance perspective, but I am sure that video support will get there in a release or two. I wouldn't be surprised if we see hybrid DJ/VJ'ers in the next year or two using Ableton Live to do an entire show. As it stands with warping, scrubbing, etc... I bet you'll see some DJ's doing some interesting live video work as it stands... because there is usually at least one lunatic who will try anything once

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:42 pm

elektrovert wrote: but it's hardly gonna be any use for Live performance is it?
.

actually, i just finished writing quite a detailed email about video clips in session view

at the moment you can put the video clips in session view, but they are only audio clips - I'm assuming this is to do with the fact that warping the audio track on a video clip slows down the global project tempo

AFAIK the video player can be run on a seperate monitor or data projector, but I havent tried it yet

so think about this for a second - if you could have it so that all of those clips in session view could be triggered in order - maybe apply follow actions, do whatever you like FX wise to the audio track then it is everything about the live performance

I'm pretty into the idea of having a list of video clips in my live set and triggering them over a projector in a club - all from one laptop

njh · Post by **njh** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:42 pm

Robert Henke wrote:No, of course not. It is quite essential to get all that feedback, this is why we are spending some time here reading it all. And we really seriously maintain a list where all wishes end up so we get not only a qualitative but also some kind of quantitive idea of your wishes. This is one reason why video playback is in now. The ratio between the time we had to invest and the number of request was very good.

So, if you really need a feature, go ahead, write about it, even if it has been said ten times before. Just be not too dissapointed if it is not in later. There might be reasons behind it which are more complex then it seems. ( Like we could change it with a dirty hack for the next version or we could change it together with some other things we need to improve later and then have the abillity to solve another bunch of wishes simulatiously as a side effect. )

Robert

this is the only time that a founder of anything has ever responded to something i have said.. i think this is very cool and obvious that you guys are listening to live users.. my wishes for live have been very simple but like most people they are wishes .. the only reason we would hope for a certain feature in live is because we love the program. i doubt that even a person that has a big complaint on here is going to stop using live. it should be clear to you that your company has made a program that is becoming a new standered in music production.

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:43 pm

Robert Henke wrote:You will be convinced finally, i am 100% sure.

I know you all keep track of a lot of the input, negative and positive... do you also have a metric for retractions after product release?