v6: About time they stopped calling it "Live"...

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:40 pm

robbmasters wrote:

It's OK. I saved more money than I lost, by buying PCs instead of Macs. Wink

But let's not turn this into another silly PC vs Mac thread...

However, to answer your question, I'd say that the vast majority of developers of quality (software and/or hardware products) products care about Microsoft as users of Microsoft operating systems are their biggest potential customer base. Now that Emagic is part of Apple it's not completely surprising that they've cut off Windows users as I guess they think they'll make more money by getting PC users to buy Macs (and other Apple software) than they will selling software to PC users. But it's still annoying for any PC users of Logic. And for any Mac users who liked the fact that it was cross-platform.

i hear you!, no don't worry i am not about to start another silly P vs M thread / discussion, but history has shown that most, if not all software kinda sucks that is crossplatform, unless you have a really big developer team and you are able to take care about every detail... just porting it to another platform, doesn't do the trick... look at cubase on a mac... or logic, when it still was PC, just pure shite in terms of reliabilty and CPU efficiency, etc.

that's why i said that itr was the best decision of emagic ever, because they can concentrate on getting the best hand in hand with the sytem out of the prog, just look at Logics amazing, purely utter amazing CPU efficiency compared to it's power, it stands apart from anything else outthere in that respect (and for me in many others, but that's just me!) you can see the difference clearly since 6, since it is Mac only... it's simple, they can concentrate on one thing.

i could go on and on... in the end of the day i don't care what people use, but i believe that software developers and i mean ALL of them should make a decision for which platform they develope...
crossplatform sucks as no one takes care propperly for the one or other in that case. (or proof me wrong, that is however my experience since the use of computers for my work)

the performance difference of "one platform only apps" clearly show what i mean.

however to come back from the drift, please abletonians, supply us with a decent Live / DJ tool... if you ruin Live towards a DAW, then at least come up with a NEW dedicated Live / DJ tool which is superior to Traktor, final scratch or serato....

i need a live tool.

robbmasters · Post by **robbmasters** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:37 pm

Yes, I guess there's a trade off. I like to use cross platform software so that I don't come up against "no, we can't use that, we're all Mac based" (or vice versa). But I take your point that that's likely to lead to some kind of compromise - be it performance, development time, features or whatever...

KU · Post by KU » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:10 pm

Angstrom wrote:
I will now continue to work on V2, I slowed considerably because I thought it was "obvious" ableton would make a better one, with so many Live performers using looping.

I am now doing a silly dance of joy
joy of joys
ree-ta-tee-ta-tee-tee

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:33 pm

KU wrote:
Angstrom wrote:
I will now continue to work on V2, I slowed considerably because I thought it was "obvious" ableton would make a better one, with so many Live performers using looping.
I am now doing a silly dance of joy
joy of joys
ree-ta-tee-ta-tee-tee

yes

I solved a couple of problems tonight actually, the bit that duplicates the current loop into the next 'potential' loop was buggin me, but now it works the same as the old Angstrolooper did. I mean when you double the loop length it doubles the current sample

I have a few 'what to put in what to leave out' issues

I may put 2 tabs 'performance' and 'setup' or perhaps 'advanced'
I am very likely going to put a reverse in this one.
It has /2 *2 buttons to halve or double the loop
It will have time signature variations because the current one only has 4/4 !!!
Thats the only major part I haven't done.

there's some other stuff too.
oh it has a manual re-trigger to restart the loop from the beginning(if you see what I mean) as well as an option to start the loop from song start, which the current one doesnt!

oh and it will come with a 'vertical' skin as well as 'horizontal' so it makes more visual sense and multiple instances stay tidy above multiple tracks

keeping it simple looking is still a big thing!

there's a few stupid suprises I will add in addition to the above for the Ableton massive too.

KU · Post by KU » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:05 pm

Angstrom wrote:
I have a few 'what to put in what to leave out' issues

My most desired feature is a Loop A/B/C button so that a single instance of Angstrolooper can hold multiple loops.

an Undo feature which lifts previous passes of recorded material. It would be nice if this feature ignored passes in which no material was recorded.

I think reverse is great, but perhaps an option to have the loop resume play in correct relation to the bar/beat. Maybe a momentary reverse.

godspeed and have fun!

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:16 pm

hmm,
I've been off and on with an A/B/C button, but I tend to use it in multiples in Live tracks which means you could have 10 if you need,or just one. So that kind of decided me against layers really .

I have been pondering "Undo last loop" though, we'll see how that goes.

all of these features are subject to change - if reverse seems too gimicky in extended use, or not particularly usable, I might leave it out. right now it's amusing me in a 'reverse guitar solo' kind of way

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:49 am

Angstrom wrote:hmm,
I've been off and on with an A/B/C button, but I tend to use it in multiples in Live tracks which means you could have 10 if you need,or just one. So that kind of decided me against layers really .

I have been pondering "Undo last loop" though, we'll see how that goes.

all of these features are subject to change - if reverse seems too gimicky in extended use, or not particularly usable, I might leave it out. right now it's amusing me in a 'reverse guitar solo' kind of way

without having used it much - my2c worth - reverse is always a big request in other places - i don think you could go wrong with a reverse

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:18 am

yes, I may well keep the reverse, I like the idea of it resuming where it would be if it hadn't reversed - I'll probably do it that way.
Although, I have a version (one of many) that uses a 'lag' on the reverse - like a turntable, you can make it 'scratch' the loop backwards and forwards , that's a pretty funny feature -but obviously it is not the same as a 'resumed' reverse.
(technical note : by lag I mean a 1-pole filter on the buffer index)

you can see why making it simple is the hardest job!
I literally have about 10 different versions to pick the best bits from.

deva · Post by **deva** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:34 am

robbmasters wrote:Yes, I guess there's a trade off. I like to use cross platform software so that I don't come up against "no, we can't use that, we're all Mac based" (or vice versa). But I take your point that that's likely to lead to some kind of compromise - be it performance, development time, features or whatever...

that is not necessarily true...

companies that started on one platform and then migrate over sometimes do so in a way that is code intensive for the future. Some companies make a code base that is easy to port.

One great example is Cinema4d modeling/animation software. Incredibly stable, cpu efficient, and features advance fast. They made the software in such a way that it is easy to port. Just for fun one day they ported the renderer to a gameboy. They have PC/Mac/Linux.

More developers are getting good at reducing platform specific overhead

deva · Post by **deva** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:34 am

Angstrom wrote:
KU wrote:
Angstrom wrote:
I will now continue to work on V2, I slowed considerably because I thought it was "obvious" ableton would make a better one, with so many Live performers using looping.
I am now doing a silly dance of joy
joy of joys
ree-ta-tee-ta-tee-tee

yes
I solved a couple of problems tonight actually, the bit that duplicates the current loop into the next 'potential' loop was buggin me, but now it works the same as the old Angstrolooper did. I mean when you double the loop length it doubles the current sample

I have a few 'what to put in what to leave out' issues

I may put 2 tabs 'performance' and 'setup' or perhaps 'advanced'
I am very likely going to put a reverse in this one.
It has /2 *2 buttons to halve or double the loop
It will have time signature variations because the current one only has 4/4 !!!
Thats the only major part I haven't done.

there's some other stuff too.
oh it has a manual re-trigger to restart the loop from the beginning(if you see what I mean) as well as an option to start the loop from song start, which the current one doesnt!

oh and it will come with a 'vertical' skin as well as 'horizontal' so it makes more visual sense and multiple instances stay tidy above multiple tracks

keeping it simple looking is still a big thing!

there's a few stupid suprises I will add in addition to the above for the Ableton massive too.

now please make it work for macs

loophead · Post by **loophead** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:39 am

Angstrom wrote:
loophead wrote:"Really? I can use a rotary control to select tracks?
and map a button to launch (or stop or delete) whichever clip is currently selected?

i don't see how.

what am i missing?"

Even easier with a Griffin Powermate. Do a search on these forums for powermate

...mate

Lots of us have been doing this forever.
tell quandry you can delete a clip on command with a pedal, I think he will be suprised.

Quandry you (and everyone) else CAN DELETE A CLIP on command with a pedal, or a Powermate or several such devices and implements.

A lot of folks talk of this or that pet issue but never seem to join the conversation when we tell you how you might achieve them.

I do not know what else to tell you....

Are you surprised......

Well we tried.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:03 pm

loophead wrote:
Angstrom wrote:
loophead wrote:"Really? I can use a rotary control to select tracks?
and map a button to launch (or stop or delete) whichever clip is currently selected?

i don't see how.

what am i missing?"

Even easier with a Griffin Powermate. Do a search on these forums for powermate

...mate

Lots of us have been doing this forever.
tell quandry you can delete a clip on command with a pedal, I think he will be suprised.
Quandry you (and everyone) else CAN DELETE A CLIP on command with a pedal, or a Powermate or several such devices and implements.

A lot of folks talk of this or that pet issue but never seem to join the conversation when we tell you how you might achieve them.

I do not know what else to tell you....

Are you surprised......

Well we tried.

can you elaborate please, I'm "joining the conversation". I don't fully comprehend this solution to deleting clips that are being recorded on the fly. Let's say I use a midi pedal to launch a clip into recording a loop of my playing bass. In Live 3, hitting "delete" next always deletes the clip (I use midi ox and bomes to achieve a qwerty "delete" with a midi pedal). In 4 and 5 (and now 6 beta 1), it doesn't work. With 6 I can now use the "track status" command and a subsequent "delete" keystroke to select and delete a specific loop in a specific track.

Is this whole powermate yadda yadda solution any easier, or do I have to toe tap while watching my screen in order to scoll up and over to the right clip and then delete it, which is not what I want to do at all. For me, playing an instrument live in front of an audience requires some concentration, and the last thing I want to do when I make a little mistake is have to look at my screen and toe tap a bunch to delete a clip. I just want to quickly hit one button and know that it will delete the clip I messed up, and know that it will work perfectly every time. Live 3 did this perfectly, every time. The reason why I've been vocal about 4 and 5 sucking as loopers is because 3 worked so well, and any solutions to live looping with the ability to delete a flubbed clip in 4 or 5 were major workarounds, requiring a lot more effort and pedals to accomplish than one simple "delete" pedal in 3.

6 appears to be getting a bit closer with the new "track status" button, but it is still not 3. I guess I feel justified in complaining that a crucial feature of 3 has been eradicated, only to have Ableton subsequently hype Live as a looping tool with Kid Beyond. I'm impressed that he can do all his stuff without the saftey net of "delete", but every hardware looper in the world offers the ability to "undo" and delete a flubbed clip with one pedal press, and marketing Ableton as a live looping solution to a market that is used to hardware loopers is deceptive and setting people up for dissapointment.

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:17 pm

AdamJay wrote:... la resistance lives on ....

oh my is that a quote from South Park? Oh my oh my what is the world coming to...

that's a direct quote from the movie - wow!

I'm starting to like you more and more everyday

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:35 pm

i love how any time someone complains about live's inability to record loops in session of a preset length (so that you don't have to punch out) the issue just gets dropped or overlooked (it was one of the first issue raised in this fairly long thread). that would seem to be useful to both folk recording in studio and playing live (because many, many people are generally recording loops of a set length for any given song). why live doesn't have a preference somewhere that permits you to automate loop lengths by (e.g.) bars is beyond me. this is about the 6th time i've seen someone ask for a workaround with no answer forthcoming. i assume there's some complex way to do it with follow actions, but that's likely to be little help.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:53 pm

dj superflat wrote:i love how any time someone complains about live's inability to record loops in session of a preset length (so that you don't have to punch out) the issue just gets dropped or overlooked (it was one of the first issue raised in this fairly long thread). that would seem to be useful to both folk recording in studio and playing live (because many, many people are generally recording loops of a set length for any given song). why live doesn't have a preference somewhere that permits you to automate loop lengths by (e.g.) bars is beyond me. this is about the 6th time i've seen someone ask for a workaround with no answer forthcoming. i assume there's some complex way to do it with follow actions, but that's likely to be little help.

I'm pretty sure by using bomes (on pc) or midipipe (on mac) kid beyond is able to achieve the recording of loops of preset lengths. From what I understand, he uses bomes or midipipe to send a series of comands to Live, and utilizes the shortcuts for global quantize value to set the loop length. A basic series of events that he triggers (as far as I can tell)--launch clip to record a new loop>set new global quantize value to specifiy loop length in bars (again, using bomes/midipipe to achieve the proper keyboard shortcuts)>trigger clip launch again, which makes the clip he is recording on the fly stop recording and loop when it reaches the next global quantize value (be it 1 bar, 2 bars, 4 bars, etc.). I think all of these commands are sent in quick sequence with one pedal press. Yes, this is probably in the category of "workaround", and requires at least one piece of extra software, but it is a pretty powerful way to work. Granted, it would be easier if this were more simple to do this entirely in Live.

All that said, I still think people doing live looping on stage with instruments would benefit immensly more from actually having a way to delete flubbed clips on the fly--all hardware looping pedals I know of allow this, most don't allow a preset loop length--in fact one of the major limitations of looping pedals vs. Live is that the first loop generally determines the max loop length of subsequent loops (except on the pricer>$500 pedals/rack units). Anyhow, both pre-specified loop lengths and delete capabilities entirely supported within Live would be a welcome help to the live looping crowd.