mastering in Live

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:44 pm

I am just a DJ, not a producer..... but I will say this:

When I purchased vinyl, the sound quality was almost always great. Rarely have I purchased a new record with poor sound quality, unless it was some bootleg white label or something like that.

Now that I use Ableton, and purchase digital music from sites like Beatport, DJDownload, etc.... I rarely get any music that actually sounds good to begin with.... MP3, WAV, it doesn't matter.

Obviously, the mastering (or the lack thereof) has completely gone to shit with the advent of digital distribution.

I don't know what everyone is doing, or not doing... or whatever..... but all I can say is.... it SUCKS.

All you producers out there..... your sound quality has gone to shit. Please do something about it.

Seriously, though.... what's the deal? It seems like every single file I download has been compressed/limited to fucking hell, and you can't mix anything without clipping hardcore. I have to reduce gains on many tracks by as much as 5-7 dB just to make them mix without redlining the master. There's no dynamics left. Record a piece of vinyl into the computer, and you get a beautiful wave form.... open a Beatport WAV, and get a solid Blue square wave form. Half the time you can't even see breakdowns, it's been compressed so badly.

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:07 am

subterFUSE wrote:I am just a DJ, not a producer..... but I will say this:

When I purchased vinyl, the sound quality was almost always great. Rarely have I purchased a new record with poor sound quality, unless it was some bootleg white label or something like that.

Now that I use Ableton, and purchase digital music from sites like Beatport, DJDownload, etc.... I rarely get any music that actually sounds good to begin with.... MP3, WAV, it doesn't matter.

Obviously, the mastering (or the lack thereof) has completely gone to shit with the advent of digital distribution.

I don't know what everyone is doing, or not doing... or whatever..... but all I can say is.... it SUCKS.

All you producers out there..... your sound quality has gone to shit. Please do something about it.

Seriously, though.... what's the deal? It seems like every single file I download has been compressed/limited to fucking hell, and you can't mix anything without clipping hardcore. I have to reduce gains on many tracks by as much as 5-7 dB just to make them mix without redlining the master. There's no dynamics left. Record a piece of vinyl into the computer, and you get a beautiful wave form.... open a Beatport WAV, and get a solid Blue square wave form. Half the time you can't even see breakdowns, it's been compressed so badly.

If it's a digital release, it's still up to the label to master it properly.. blame the label (yes, and the producer too, for not bitching enough)

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:27 am

some (if not most) of what you're hearing on vinyl is just that -- vinyl. just like slamming things to tape create analog distortion we find pleasing, putting those things on vinyl and then reproducing them with a tone arm produces all sort of further distortion we find pleasing. put another way, both tape and vinyl provide their own distinct sort of mastering, and it's one that humans either inherently find pleasing (because analog, soft edges, less brittle highs, etc.) or have been conditioned to find pleasing by growing up on vinyl. (related: do kids these days even realize how bad the sound quality is on a cell fone? if they do, do they care? or is degraded sound quality, whether cell fone or MP3 something you learn to live with? (i still like the sound of am radio on one of those car radios from the 70s.))

mers · Post by **mers** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:46 am

Hello

in my opinion and experience the best solution is not using plug-in at all, and of course not bouncing into the pc, but simply sum the multi/stereo output of your audio card into a mixer, "sound mixer",

(which does not means obligatorily something esoteric, even a Studiomaster from the '80 would give a character)

use the eq properly (listening at the right volume level, Fletcher and Munson...; compression ( here as well even a dbx 166, old factory would by great ) and the straight to a pro CD recording ( hhb, tascam..)

looking patiently into the second hand market for this equipment, it will need the same budget of buying some vst software.

the result is definitely different... guess which one is better...?

good music everyone

Gigi D'Amico

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:10 am

some (if not most) of what you're hearing on vinyl is just that -- vinyl. just like slamming things to tape create analog distortion we find pleasing, putting those things on vinyl and then reproducing them with a tone arm produces all sort of further distortion we find pleasing.

Superflat:

Again, I repeat, I am not a producer.... but I do know enough about audio to know that what you just said is not relevant to this issue. The sound quality degradation I speak of has nothing to do with the harmonic distortion which is present in a vinyl recording.

What I am talking about has to do with limitations of bit depth resolution within digital recordings, and the processes used to master said recordings for final distribution.

It is obvious that recordings on Beatport (and others) have been mastered in a different fashion. Specifically, it is obvious to me..... again, a novice.... that heavy compression/limiting are used in order to boost the RMS levels to a point where the audio "sounds loud" but remains just below clipping. The drawback is that the dynamics of the recordings are lost in this effort to increase overall loudness.

Just try this test..... download any song from Beatport, and load it into Ableton. Chances are, the waveform will fill the vertical distance available. Next, try recording a vinyl track into Ableton. Then compare the waveforms. You'll notice the vinyl has much more definition in the waveform.... due to the fact that it has retained dynamic range. The overall RMS loudness levels of the vinyl recording will be lower.... but the sound quality will be far superior. The digital file will appear artificialy limited, which is EXACTLY what is going on.

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:32 am

robtronik wrote: what do you master in? I was thinking of getting PT or Logic to do this in. any thoughts there?

rob;

actually Rob - IMO getting something just for mastering is pointless

you are here asking these questions which means you arent a mastering engineer and as has been mentioned earlier in this thread in many cases what you are paying for is their ears and YEARS of experience that has lead mastering engineers to their skill level - so unless you're ambition is to become a mastering engineer why bother?

personally, I've used most of the sequencers out there, tried alot of really good plug-ins and in the end I've found I get really good results just using live and a waves L2 over the master

as I mentioned earlier, mixing is the best mastering there is - you worry about getting your mixing as good as possible - which you can do perfectly well in Live - and then let the mastering engineer just worry about the boring stuff necessary to get it on vinyl etc

these days you can do a very good job just like htat - Live can get a brilliant sound if you use it right - and the L2 is a really effective plug-in to just bring it out of itself that bit more

my 2c

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:37 am

plus, you would also be far better off putting that money towards properly sound treating your room and getting some enourmously good speakers

that would do more for your sound, with Just Live - even without L2 or whatever than Logic or pro-tools ever could in a million years

subterFUSE · Post by **subterFUSE** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:42 am

But why do all these fuckwits COMPRESS/LIMIT all their crap?

Just produce it.... and leave it alone. Don't boost the fucking RMS levels. If we want to do that, we can run it through Sound Forge..... or just turn the gain knob.

jamester · Post by **jamester** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:13 am

forge wrote:plus, you would also be far better off putting that money towards properly sound treating your room and getting some enourmously good speakers

that would do more for your sound, with Just Live - even without L2 or whatever than Logic or pro-tools ever could in a million years

So true.

It really is all about the monitors and the room...way way more than any software. The most important thing of all is knowing that what you're hearing is actually what is coming out of the speakers!

And the better your speakers, the more of what's actually in your software you'll hear.

mers · Post by **mers** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:46 pm

p.s. to the my previous message

If the mastering session improve over the 30%, it means that the previous job ( recording/mixing ), was made with mistakes