OT Bush calls Lebanon A new front for global war on terror

[M. Bréqs]

I dont understand your logic. You seem to think civilian casualties are a good thing????? Is this the case?? Or just that they dont really matter, in order to protect the "good guys"?

Not at all. They're lamentable. But Israel has the firepower to completely annihilate Hizbollah. The fact that they didn't shows that Israel showed restraint, something which Hizbollah did not.

Israel has failed to finish off Hizbollah because they're more concerned about civilian life (and the inevitable international condemnation to follow) than they are about achieving security (in the form of a 30 km buffer zone pushed to the Litani River).

This whole thing has been a failure because IF YOU ARE GOING TO FIGHT A WAR, FIGHT TO WIN IT DECISIVELY.

[M. Bréqs]

jesus
"germans allowed themselves to be dominated by an insane militant group" - one of the most foolish statements ive heard.

Why is that foolish? Do you honestly believe that EVERY single German between 1933 and 1945 was a Nazi? If so, you're the foolish one.

That society was controlled by a specific group bent on war. I see a paralell to Islam.

[M. Bréqs]

Certainly Hezbollah has not been deterred, but rather strengthened as the world news organizations have pointed out in concert.

Correct. Though I said "CONVENTIONAL" attack. The chances of a Syrian, Egyptian or Jordinian armoured / infantry invasion of Israel are deterred. Unconventional attack? Israel dropped the ball big time.

...If I shoot at your neighbors from your yard and they shoot back and kill your family, are you gonna tell them its ok cause it was knotkranky's fault?

Simplistic analogy. If you shoot my neighbours from my yard, and I LET you run into my house to hide, I should fully expect my neighbours' retaliation. If my neighbours are gun toting survivalist nuts, then I'm doubly stupid for tolerating your presence. I certainly would not proclaim Knotkranky as my protector while he cowers in my basement shitting his drawers, hoping I get killed so he can have a propaganda coup at the next neighbourhood association meeting.

Then this bestows you with the biggest set of balls in the entire world.

Thanks for your compliment, but I disagree. There are others with much bigger balls than I.

Yes, civilian casualties are lamentable. But we didn't win World War II by only bombing card carrying Nazi party members, we devastated Germany. There was a society that allowed themselves to be dominated by an insane, militant group... And the Germans (including my grandparents) paid the price.

Sorry, I see no correlation. Wipe out millions of Lebanese because......?

I'll draw out the analogy for you. What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon. They must be removed from power. UNFORTUNATELY, the only reliable way to do so is to attack with overwhelming force, and in doing so some of the people of Lebanon will be killed. Being too discriminate in your warfighting will only hamper your efforts to the point where you will only blow stuff up but will not achieve your strategic aims... A complete waste of effort. In this case the civilian casualties died for nothing. If Israel had at least prosecuted their campaign with the necessary force, then Hizbollah would have been crippled. With Hizbollah crippled or destroyed, at least the damage would be justifiable, if regrettable.

A man in your position may see me as anti Israel. Understand that nothing could be further from the truth. I am anti bomb your troubles away.

You can bomb your troubles away. We did it to Germany and Japan. History shows that with sufficient force, you can totally subjugate a society and they'll play nice within one generation.

[sbyrd]

turn the middle east into a parking lot. with casinos.

[wavejumper]

turn the middle east into a parking lot. with casinos.

yup, like this guy says.

[ethios4]

jesus
"germans allowed themselves to be dominated by an insane militant group" - one of the most foolish statements ive heard.

Why is that foolish? Do you honestly believe that EVERY single German between 1933 and 1945 was a Nazi? If so, you're the foolish one.

That society was controlled by a specific group bent on war. I see a paralell to Islam.

And this relates directly to what is going on...why did Germans allow themselves to be dominated? Because overpowering sanctions after WWI creted conditions that fostered the rise of nationalist extremists who took advatnage of the extreme poverty and suffering in Germany at the time.

This is an important lesson in history that Israel, of all people, should well learn from. When you create these kinds of situations for a people, they will cling to the ones that promise to alleviate their suffering through terror and arms.

Governments like the ones of Israel and the US would do well to back off the self-righteous vengeful tip, and carefully think through the LONG-TERM ramifications of their actions. Violence begets violence...it's not just a cliche, it's how things actually work...and of course it applies equally to both sides of this and all conflicts.

[subterFUSE]

If the USA backed off, the only result would be that terrorists rebuild their ranks and regroup for new attacks around the world.... only with more strength than before.


During the Clinton years, terrorists attacked US interests at home, and abroad. Our response in all those cases was to back off. And what good did that do? None, whatsoever.... other than to embolden the terrorists, and allow them to find safe locations to build their strength.

[wavejumper]

i think the operating word was 'overpowering sanctions" not 'backing off' but whatever. i'm all for parking lots and casinos.

[leisuremuffin]

here's my problem:

attacking nations that harbor or support terrorists is kind of like attacking south carolina to get rid of the ku klux klan. (in the era when the klan was more powerful and active as a terror group itself)

invading the SC to get rid of the klan wouldn't end racism or eliminate the klan. It would wreck SC, though.


please excuse that this is a kind of silly metaphor, but it holds true in some ways.




With all of the resources we've spent on war in afganistan and iraq, we probably could have done something about terror orginazations. Instead, we've stirred up the hornets nest even more, and probably pushed some people over the edge into actually supporting the terror organizations. Result or wars so far: We don't have bin laden, we haven't ended anti us sentiments in the muslim world (in fact, quite the opposite), and we certainly haven't ended terrorism.



It seems that the isreal and palestine will never work out their issues, but throwing more bloodshed at the situation isn't going to get them any closer. I mean what are we and isreal going to do? Eliminate all of palestine? These people are not going to just surrender at some point, they will fight to the last man (or child).


all over a stupid piece of land that isreal took by force in ancient times anyway. And both claim as their holy land for the ridiculous demon they worship.





.lm.

[stinky]

all over a stupid piece of land that isreal took by force in ancient times anyway.


.lm.

Just to be clear, the Palestinians have nothing to do with the Philistines. The palestinians were given the name 'palestinians' by the British Empire, when the British controlled the region, after getting it from the Ottomans... but that's where it ends there.

[leisuremuffin]

ohh, i wasn't implying that isreal took isreal from the pallestinians in ancient times. I was just pointing out that they took that land by force, it wasn't their homeland.


If you want to have a good time, read the seciton of the bible that is about taking it. I think josua and deuteronomy if i remember correctly. It's full of lots of awesome stuff, like god commanding josua to have his army exterminate every living thing in a city, including children and elderly. It's a big part of why i consider the "god" of abraham to be a demon, not a god, and a character to be avoided at all costs. I'm not going to argue if the bible is true or not, but if it is, it really depicts a vile and dangerous entity that runs the universe the same way a mob boss runs a crime syndicate, thru violence and intimidation. Since the mother fucker says he's a jealous god, i'm going to wait for a better offer from one of those other cat's he's jealous of.





.lm.

[subterFUSE]

With all of the resources we've spent on war in afganistan and iraq, we probably could have done something about terror orginazations. Instead, we've stirred up the hornets nest even more, and probably pushed some people over the edge into actually supporting the terror organizations. Result or wars so far: We don't have bin laden, we haven't ended anti us sentiments in the muslim world (in fact, quite the opposite), and we certainly haven't ended terrorism.

We have done a lot about terrorism, so far. That's not to say the job is finished.... far from it... but serious blows have been dealt. And, we have not been attacked at home since. Some people dismiss this fact as luck, or coincidence, or something like that.... I disagree. I think that the decision to take the war to their turf has made us safer at home. Most of you on this board disagree with me, and I know that. But I still feel strongly on this point.

Of course the terrorists are going to use our actions as recruiting material. But, if we were not acting, it's not as if they would cease their recruiting. They would simply use other reasons. Bottom line is they want to kill us, and they'll use any excuse they can come up with. But if we are fighting them where they live and sleep, they won't have such an easy time setting camp and building their strength for the next big attack. As long as we are hunting them, they'll be on the run.

Am I saying that I think there won't be another terror attack? I don't know. I do feel we are safer today than before 9/11, but a part of me still fears there will be another attack. I grew up in Washington, DC.... and my dad still works at his office, which is less than a block from the White House. I obviously feel scared about what could happen if the terrorists truly got their wish. But I also think that if we had not responded to 9/11 with violence, we would still be attacked again.... and I think that if we had not, we might have been attacked again already.

[stinky]

ohh, i wasn't implying that isreal took isreal from the pallestinians in ancient times. I was just pointing out that they took that land by force, it wasn't their homeland.


If you want to have a good time, read the seciton of the bible that is about taking it. I think josua and deuteronomy if i remember correctly. It's full of lots of awesome stuff, like god commanding josua to have his army exterminate every living thing in a city, including children and elderly. It's a big part of why i consider the "god" of abraham to be a demon, not a god, and a character to be avoided at all costs. I'm not going to argue if the bible is true or not, but if it is, it really depicts a vile and dangerous entity that runs the universe the same way a mob boss runs a crime syndicate, thru violence and intimidation. Since the mother fucker says he's a jealous god, i'm going to wait for a better offer from one of those other cat's he's jealous of.



.lm.

I'm not going to address you're god->demon rant.. it's not my place. But, I think this statement is a hoot:

"I was just pointing out that they took that land by force, it wasn't their homeland."

Do you say the same things about the Chinese? Romans? Greeks? Persians? Americans? Ottomans? Spanish? French? Germans? Or do you have a specific reason for singling out Israeli's. It's funny that, out of all the groups i've just mentioned, Israeli's have never ever had an empire to speak of, and have consistently only defended one portion of the world, and have never been agressive in seeking an 'Empire'. You can say all the things you want about Zionism trying to control the world, because that's just bullshit propaganda. Zionism's only statement is a jewish homeland in the state of Israel. Nothing else has been claimed.

[forge]

all over a stupid piece of land that isreal took by force in ancient times anyway. And both claim as their holy land for the ridiculous demon they worship.





.lm.

you know what - I didnt realise that Iraq and Israel actually used to be British "protectorates or mandates" - our lot have stirred up far more shit than I really care to admit

what really shocked me was that the commonwealth of nations - or former British Empire actually numbered about 1 third of the world's population

that 3rd of the world hasnt forgotten

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

After World War II, the Empire was gradually dismantled, partly owing to the rise of independence movements in the then-subject territories (such as that started in India under the influence of Mohandas Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose), and partly owing to the British Government's strained circumstances resulting from the cost of the war. The word "British" was dropped in 1946 from the title of the Commonwealth to reflect the changing position. Burma (1948), and Aden (1967) are the only former colonies not to have joined the Commonwealth upon independence. Among the former protectorates and mandates, Iraq (1932), Jordan (1946), Israel (1948), Egypt (1953), Sudan (1956), Kuwait (1961), Bahrain (1971), Oman (1971), Qatar (1971), and the United Arab Emirates (1971) never became members of the Commonwealth. The Republic of Ireland left the Commonwealth upon becoming a republic in 1949. However, the Ireland Act 1949 passed by the Parliament of Westminster gave citizens of the Republic of Ireland a status similar to that of other citizens of the Commonwealth in UK law.......

[leisuremuffin]

ohh, i wasn't implying that isreal took isreal from the pallestinians in ancient times. I was just pointing out that they took that land by force, it wasn't their homeland.


If you want to have a good time, read the seciton of the bible that is about taking it. I think josua and deuteronomy if i remember correctly. It's full of lots of awesome stuff, like god commanding josua to have his army exterminate every living thing in a city, including children and elderly. It's a big part of why i consider the "god" of abraham to be a demon, not a god, and a character to be avoided at all costs. I'm not going to argue if the bible is true or not, but if it is, it really depicts a vile and dangerous entity that runs the universe the same way a mob boss runs a crime syndicate, thru violence and intimidation. Since the mother fucker says he's a jealous god, i'm going to wait for a better offer from one of those other cat's he's jealous of.



.lm.

I'm not going to address you're god->demon rant.. it's not my place. But, I think this statement is a hoot:

"I was just pointing out that they took that land by force, it wasn't their homeland."

Do you say the same things about the Chinese? Romans? Greeks? Persians? Americans? Ottomans? Spanish? French? Germans? Or do you have a specific reason for singling out Israeli's. It's funny that, out of all the groups i've just mentioned, Israeli's have never ever had an empire to speak of, and have consistently only defended one portion of the world, and have never been agressive in seeking an 'Empire'. You can say all the things you want about Zionism trying to control the world, because that's just bullshit propaganda. Zionism's only statement is a jewish homeland in the state of Israel. Nothing else has been claimed.

i didn't mean to single out isreal in this regard, just pointing out the fact.


.lm.