OT Bush calls Lebanon A new front for global war on terror

[mikemc]

actually, the way capitalism works is we all get rich together, not at the expense of one another. (the banker isn't taking money from the lawn care guy, instead, he's the only reason the lawn care guy has a business (no one pays for lawn care if they don't have money elsewhere); and the lawn care guy borrows money from the banker to buy a new truck or mower, which helps the banker and the lawn care guy.)

The way the U.S. has become rich is by having abundant natural resources (and of course due to the genocide of the people that were living here before the Europeans came, but that is another topic)

That is actually a very good topic, because it has to do with the "colonizer/settler mindset" and refurbished history that is the basis for the US being so naive.

The way the U.S. has extended that wealth and power is by creating client states and impovershing them in order to maintain our wealth. Go talk to the people of Latin America in order to learn this.

I think this is not exactly true, but has some truth. Commercial interests that at first drew their power from the US economy and channels of influence have created a network of resource pools that happen to exist in poorer countries, they negotiated access to these resources at low rates and these commercial interests in turn exert influence on the US to perpetuate that advantage ins something of an artificial way. This is an extremely important point, because the people in those countries see "the US" as these commercial interests, and sometimes we in the US erroneously see these commercial interests as "us", but they do whatever they do in the interest of profit, period.

Rest assured, if the resources those big commercial interests needed existed in West Virginia, the people there would be exploited at the lowest possible wages for the highest possible benefit... ah, wait a second...

[deva]

Where is all this US government repression I keep hearing about?

It is all around you. Free speech means nothing, if you cannot act. The master can let the slaves say whatever they want, as long as they do not try to change things. They are still slaves. That sort of free speech has no meaning.

so - I counter your "lack of vibrant free speech" claim and you re-define what free speech is?

I gave you a couple examples of "free speech all around".

Give me one example where anyone is prohibited from taking any action in an effort to change things.

- r

I did not change the definition. I added the word vibrant right from the start to differentiate. I could have used the word meaningful.

I understand very well now, from firsthand experience, what 'free speech' has come to mean in this country. It is the hollow shell of a great potential.

First, go read up on Cointelpro. Learn something about the history of government repression of those who dissent.

Second, know that Cointelpro is alive and well.

I can tell you firsthand about free expression in the United States. I can tell you about standing handcuffed in the middle of the night surrounded by federal agents and being questioned because of my political beliefs.

I can tell you about being hit and pepper sprayed for peacefully and legally protesting the arrival of Bush in my city.

I can describe the fenced and barbed wire pen that protesters are forced into by nameless, faceless riot police. The pen called the "free speech zone". The one out by the airport has nothing close around it, but yeah, you are free to talk to each other, though no other people can hear you as you are surrounded by storm troopers with weapons ready.

I can tell you about the anti-war groups illegally infiltrated by the FBI and anti-terrorism police.

I can tell you about the local union members being followed and questioned by joint terrorism task force members.

I can tell you about bus loads of union workers 'detained' to prevent them from reaching a protest

I can tell you about people falsely targeted and arrested because they are perceived as leaders.

I can tell you about the climate of fear, as peoples phones are tapped, and their photographs taken if they attend a protest and about being followed home. I can tell you about calls to employers and family.

and sadly, I can tell you about too many people who have shut-up or carefully watch what they say because they cannot take the pressure the government exerts.

The people that think we have meaningful freedom of speech are the ones who don't try to act and make use of the rights we think we have. We are in great danger of losing those rights altogether.

[Kodama]

Anyone who calls a Korg Z1 a controller has no right to free speech.

[elemental]

The way the U.S. has become rich is by having abundant natural resources (and of course due to the genocide of the people that were living here before the Europeans came, but that is another topic)

That is actually a very good topic, because it has to do with the "colonizer/settler mindset" and refurbished history that is the basis for the US being so naive.

Yes I agree - this is something at the very root of the US "persona" ...

[rand]

ooops

[hoffman2k]

The way the U.S. has become rich is by having abundant natural resources (and of course due to the genocide of the people that were living here before the Europeans came, but that is another topic)

That is actually a very good topic, because it has to do with the "colonizer/settler mindset" and refurbished history that is the basis for the US being so naive.

Yes I agree - this is something at the very root of the US "persona" ...

I agree. A very good topic. In order to see the big picture, you need to look back.
The only real americans are native americans.
All the other US habitants com from all over the world.
My family tree is probably bigger then US history. So is yours

[djadonis206]

My family tree is probably bigger then US history. So is yours

Tell ME about it...

[hoffman2k]

My family tree is probably bigger then US history. So is yours

Tell ME about it...

Case and point
Jesus was black!!!

[deva]

Voluntary socialist systems like these can can exist in free countries - rarely the other way around.

free countries? what is that

Predatory Capital seeks to assert itself everywhere.

Libertarians fear big government, and rightly so, but at this point, it is not big government that should most be feared, it is corporate power that is strong enough to control even governments.

A few years back, the government of Bolivia, essentially dominated by big capital investment, gave Bechtel water rights in Bolivia. Such control over water that it was illegal for a Bolivian to collect rain water to drink! This is totalitarianism.

The Bolivian people rightly opposed this. The military was sent to repress the people, quite a few people killed, but were unable to stop the uprising. When the miners marched on the capital with their explosives, the President resigned. Another dupe was put in and he was forced to resign. Now the Bolivians have elected Morales, a socialist leaning President and ally of Chavez.

This response is a matter of self defense against corporate predation which has the power to dominate whole nations. It is not ideological. Bolivians are not ideological socialists. They are organizing themselves and working together socially to protect themselves from corporate domination.

Again, it is a bottom up movement. There re not some ex soviet leaders over there, who have formed the Communist party and managed to bring it to power and thus impose something upon the people.

A friend of mine went down to Bolivia and is working with organizers in Bolivia to create a video about their uprising. Bolivians are not looking for some ideology to believe in, they are looking for practical solutions to claim their own liberty and means to chart the course of their own lives after being dominated by the great power to the north.

This is the same basic situation in Venezuela. Socialism is not being imposed upon people. People are choosing more socialist structures to protect themselves from being imposed upon.

One of the reasons that the word socialism is so vilified in this country, is because it is a viable means of self defense against capital, thus capital has done its best to turn people away from the ideas.

And of course, our sense of our own history is very short and distorted. People enjoy a 40 hour work week, overtime pay, vacation, health benefits because of socialists who helped organize unions. People fought and died for these benefits. If big corporations had their way, we would all be sweat shop laborers working for a few dollars a day. They have not stopped trying and they have effectively crippled the union movement and the U.S. worker is being squeezed.

[djadonis206]

My family tree is probably bigger then US history. So is yours

Tell ME about it...

Case and point
Jesus was black!!!

Let's get a few things straight here people

The corrupt right wing media has all of you believing the wrong thing







yes, even the easter bunny

[hoffman2k]

yes, even the easter bunny

Priceless

LMAO

[stinky]

Jesus is my drug dealer...

[john gordon]

Voluntary socialist systems like these can can exist in free countries - rarely the other way around.

free countries? what is that

Predatory Capital seeks to assert itself everywhere.

Libertarians fear big government, and rightly so, but at this point, it is not big government that should most be feared, it is corporate power that is strong enough to control even governments.

A few years back, the government of Bolivia, essentially dominated by big capital investment, gave Bechtel water rights in Bolivia. Such control over water that it was illegal for a Bolivian to collect rain water to drink! This is totalitarianism.

The Bolivian people rightly opposed this. The military was sent to repress the people, quite a few people killed, but were unable to stop the uprising. When the miners marched on the capital with their explosives, the President resigned. Another dupe was put in and he was forced to resign. Now the Bolivians have elected Morales, a socialist leaning President and ally of Chavez.

This response is a matter of self defense against corporate predation which has the power to dominate whole nations. It is not ideological. Bolivians are not ideological socialists. They are organizing themselves and working together socially to protect themselves from corporate domination.

Again, it is a bottom up movement. There re not some ex soviet leaders over there, who have formed the Communist party and managed to bring it to power and thus impose something upon the people.

A friend of mine went down to Bolivia and is working with organizers in Bolivia to create a video about their uprising. Bolivians are not looking for some ideology to believe in, they are looking for practical solutions to claim their own liberty and means to chart the course of their own lives after being dominated by the great power to the north.

This is the same basic situation in Venezuela. Socialism is not being imposed upon people. People are choosing more socialist structures to protect themselves from being imposed upon.

One of the reasons that the word socialism is so vilified in this country, is because it is a viable means of self defense against capital, thus capital has done its best to turn people away from the ideas.

And of course, our sense of our own history is very short and distorted. People enjoy a 40 hour work week, overtime pay, vacation, health benefits because of socialists who helped organize unions. People fought and died for these benefits. If big corporations had their way, we would all be sweat shop laborers working for a few dollars a day. They have not stopped trying and they have effectively crippled the union movement and the U.S. worker is being squeezed.

rightly said.amen brother.

[glu]

[deva]

Anyone who calls a Korg Z1 a controller has no right to free speech.

yes, sir... to which camp should I report for retraining?

and I changed the wording to correct my error