ot: leave robtronik alone

[jamief]

It most likely will get worse before it gets better.

I do not feel there will be a full blown WW3, but will probably look like there will
be right up to a major shift in everything we know.

yes i agree

[andydes]

Like the Bush resume. Well actually, it's pretty abhorrent.

I think this is getting a little personnal, though. Not sure why you have to pin so much on Rob, anyway. Actually, don't bother answering that, I've read the earlier posts.

I'm not that keen on his political stance, but he's only a DJ. How much power does he whield in the Bush Administration? I'd say not a lot.

Personnally, I think it's good to debate with the man and the few others on this board fighting in his corner. We need to have our opinions challenged, and so do they. If every reply to a political post was just, "yeah, terrible, ain't it" or a load of slapping each other on the back, no one would learn anything.

As for the DU, I can't see how anyone could see that as justifiable. That's is a subject that has shocked me since the first Gulk War. If anyone wants to enlighten me on the virtues of shooting nuclear waste at people, I'm all ears.

[eddit]

As for the DU, I can't see how anyone could see that as justifiable. That's is a subject that has shocked me since the first Gulk War. If anyone wants to enlighten me on the virtues of shooting nuclear waste at people, I'm all ears.

1 It helps to kill the little brown people we are shooting it at
2 It helps to show all the other little brown people what happens if you don't like US

[robtronik]

Rob - you say that Deva's evidence is incorrect because it is biased, then you give the White house story. How is that not biased? I take your point (although I completely disagree) about 'the need to remove Saddam' but why use all this DU? This is going to impact on the Iraqui people for hundreds of years.

Also the bit about the effects of mustard gas seemed just to be a distraction from the issue, 'Look what Saddam did'
I'm not saying this is not valid information but I think it is given here as a smokescreen to draw people away from the point about D.U. Yes it is bad, but does it really show that there is no cancer caused by D.U?
Is there any more impartial evidence you can provide to disprove Deva's point?
G

as always, the truth was/is somewhere down the middle. What I was trying to point out to Deva is that his source was extreme. By the same token, you could surmise that the white house point of view was extreme. So, hence the middle position.

You noticed that I said I'm not telling anyone what to think explicitly by that post, but rather consider the source and weigh it on your own.

Despite what Koo Koo said, its not my Modus Operandi to quote government officials to prove a government position. That makes no sense to prove something which should be done by a non-interested, third party analysis.

Deva's article was just as bad in terms of non-bias, and yet, no one seems to call that into question simply because it is anti-administration. That's just as bad and a call for those that take those statements as "fact" shows their unimitigated bias.

So, Koo Koo, go back in your corner. You are wrong about how I discuss - but I don't expect you to pay attention since you have an embedded POV on all these things which by your own admission "need no further discussion". right.

And I mean that sarcastically, not in a partisan way.

lol.

rob.

[robtronik]

you know what else is interesting, you can remove George Bush from office (and he will go in 2008, despite what fascist fantasies people may have about our current form of governement) and yet consider this:

it won't change the reality on the ground on bit. We have had terrorist attacks before Bush. We will have them after Bush. Iraq will be an issue and it is without question that it will become another place for terrorists to plan against us effectively if we leave that place before it can govern/police itself.

SO, the question remains: Take out the neocon charge that seems to stick to those of us who are actually caring about fighting this problem and tell us, koo koo, and the rest, what the solution is.

How do we stop terrorism? I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were)...

Note: please keep in mind the terrorist attack attempts in Germany this last week that shocked Germans because of their anti-iraqi invasion stance. Please note that the U.S. was attacked by Al Q. in the mid-nineties while clinton was in office and before 9/11. IOW, please note that they want to kill us despite whatever policy stance we take towards them. Them = islamists who are fighting the western world.

Okay - go for it. I really want to know what you think the solution is...

rob.

[djadonis206]

you know what else is interesting, you can remove George Bush from office (and he will go in 2008, despite what fascist fantasies people may have about our current form of governement) and yet consider this:

it won't change the reality on the ground on bit. We have had terrorist attacks before Bush. We will have them after Bush. Iraq will be an issue and it is without question that it will become another place for terrorists to plan against us effectively if we leave that place before it can govern/police itself.

SO, the question remains: Take out the neocon charge that seems to stick to those of us who are actually caring about fighting this problem and tell us, koo koo, and the rest, what the solution is.

How do we stop terrorism? I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were)...

Note: please keep in mind the terrorist attack attempts in Germany this last week that shocked Germans because of their anti-iraqi invasion stance. Please note that the U.S. was attacked by Al Q. in the mid-nineties while clinton was in office and before 9/11. IOW, please note that they want to kill us despite whatever policy stance we take towards them. Them = islamists who are fighting the western world.

Okay - go for it. I really want to know what you think the solution is...

rob.

I've been saying it for months -

free ICE CREAM fridays world wide...

[djadonis206]

Robtronik at work just last week at a pie convention in Arizona ! NICE !

you wish BEYOOOTCH. How about this? Two Xone:3Ds, laptops, and us jamming jazz style for EDM?



I've got a spectralis to add that set up as well. Its a new monthly I'm doing with some like-minded inviduals. No vinyl, only gear, laptops, and pushing forward.

I'm the one in the middle BTW.



rob.

That's you in the middle? You're my homie, i could care less about your political views, personally I'm not that shallow.

but you're my boy dawg - the T-Shirt says it all

When I do my laundry I hang up all my ESDJCO t's in a nice row and go - wow look at that - everytime I get paid I buy at least 1 cause for every one I buy one gets old and played out

this one got red wine spilled on it so I only wear black now but I have at least 10 different T's in rotation now - props dawg!

[deva]

you do your cause a serious disservice if you make ridiculous statements like "possibly the greatest crime in human history." you might want to ask the roughly 60 million soviet dead from stalin, the untold number of communist dead from mao's leap, the millions pol pot slaughtered, the 6-10 million jews, gypsies, whatever the nazi gassed, etc.

please note, i'm not saying that 500K dead doesn't matter, etc. i'm just saying your statement that it's perhaps the greatest crime in human history is ridiculous on its face, and will cause many otherwise receptive people not to read anything further you might write. (don't get me wrong -- i understand that histrionics can be fun.)

First, please quote me accurately I said "The U.S. is arguably commiting one of the greatest crimes in human history." which is different than what you quoted. The U.S. has released 400,000 Hiroshima bombs worth of radioactive material on the world. 1 million pounds of DU dust into the atmosphere. DU dust from Iraq has been measured in the atmosphere in the UK.

The effects on the human dna structure is high. Over the next 20-30 years, how many millions of birth defects, cancers, and how much dna degradation will take place? This stuff has a half-life of how many years? was it 2.5 million years? I forget... The entire region will be suffering from this for generations!

So, no, my assertion is not ridiculous, not at all.

[deva]

as Thomas Jefferson once said:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

and the more salient point:

We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a feather-bed

which is to say: instituting, securing, and maintaing liberty does not come with out cost. It never has throughout history. Even Ghandi cause suffered casualties and he refused to be violent in return!

So, Iraq's fascist dictator was removed due to his own folly. Now the hard part for being free by the Iraqi's come. We need to do our part to help, and there will be more death, but this is the natural course of things when moving from a dictatorship to a country that will hopefully be self determined.

What a disgusting display of doublespeak. Ghandi was fighting for the liberty of HIS OWN PEOPLE, not imposing it upon others halfway around the world.

What arrogance to say we are going to decide that millions of people in another country are going to die. THE IRAQI PEOPLE NEED TO DECIDE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN FREEDOM. They did not ask for our intervention, they hate us for it, they are trying to kill us for it. They want us out of there.

And of course if Iraq didn't have oil the U.S. would have no interest in bringing 'democracy' there.

[M. Bréqs]

This stuff has a half-life of how many years? was it 2.5 million years? I forget... The entire region will be suffering from this for generations!

So, no, my assertion is not ridiculous, not at all.

uranium-234: half life = 244 thousand years, 0.0055% of all uranium.
uranium-235: half life = 704 million years, 0.72% of all uranium.
uranium-238: half life = 4.5 BILLION years, 99.28% of all uranium.

http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/fre ... n1420.html

Fortunately the heavier stuff (238) is too pure to shoot at people, it's much to valuable for that.

[deva]

Interesting person, this Leuren Moret is. Here is a quote from a letter she wrote to a Congressman appealing his interest in the DU controversy:

yes, when you cannot refute the message, attack the messenger.

And do note, that the majority of information in my post has nothing to do with Leuren Moret. There are plenty of independent medical sources about the levels of DU contamination in Iraq and Afghanistan

We have knowlingly committed an horrific crime against the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq

[robtronik]

as Thomas Jefferson once said:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

and the more salient point:

We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a feather-bed

which is to say: instituting, securing, and maintaing liberty does not come with out cost. It never has throughout history. Even Ghandi cause suffered casualties and he refused to be violent in return!

So, Iraq's fascist dictator was removed due to his own folly. Now the hard part for being free by the Iraqi's come. We need to do our part to help, and there will be more death, but this is the natural course of things when moving from a dictatorship to a country that will hopefully be self determined.

What a disgusting display of doublespeak. Ghandi was fighting for the liberty of HIS OWN PEOPLE, not imposing it upon others halfway around the world.

What arrogance to say we are going to decide that millions of people in another country are going to die. THE IRAQI PEOPLE NEED TO DECIDE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN FREEDOM. They did not ask for our intervention, they hate us for it, they are trying to kill us for it. They want us out of there.

And of course if Iraq didn't have oil the U.S. would have no interest in bringing 'democracy' there.

what news have you been reading? The iraqi's want us to stay until they can get their government set up.

And I guess the overwhelming voter turn out was a thumbs down for instituting self rule over Saddam or the terrorist option? Boy, you sure do sell them short.

There is no double speak with those quotes. Its clear as day: Blood sheds when people change from a tyrannical government to self rule. Period. There has never been an example of this otherwise in history. Sometimes it is worse than others.

And as for imposing on them? We don't have a choice. When we removed Saddam we have a Geneva convention mandated responsibility to stabilize their state as an occupation country until they can run it on their own. And what did you expect us to do after we rightly removed Saddam? Institute a communist government?

Again, the reality of the ground as it stands now is ignored by those who would try to rewind history. What is done is done. We now have to make good. BTW, here is a poll done in July that shows Iraqi's opinion of their life now:

http://www.iri.org/pdfs/7-18-06%20Iraq% ... tation.ppt

its powerpoint. Some good info there that refutes your claim about their feelings towards where they are now and how they got there.

rob.

[robtronik]

Interesting person, this Leuren Moret is. Here is a quote from a letter she wrote to a Congressman appealing his interest in the DU controversy:

yes, when you cannot refute the message, attack the messenger.

And do note, that the majority of information in my post has nothing to do with Leuren Moret. There are plenty of independent medical sources about the levels of DU contamination in Iraq and Afghanistan

We have knowlingly committed an horrific crime against the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq

I didn't attack the messenger, I only pointed out the obvious bias within the content of the letter sent to congress about the very issue you are using her to represent facts!

I don't know what you are talking about - I never degraded her personally, only pointed out her ridiculous assumptions and conclusions that were intended to somehow support your position.

Your logic fails me in your counterpoint. See my response above about using white house documents in response for further context.

rob.

[robtronik]

Robtronik at work just last week at a pie convention in Arizona ! NICE !

you wish BEYOOOTCH. How about this? Two Xone:3Ds, laptops, and us jamming jazz style for EDM?



I've got a spectralis to add that set up as well. Its a new monthly I'm doing with some like-minded inviduals. No vinyl, only gear, laptops, and pushing forward.

I'm the one in the middle BTW.



rob.

That's you in the middle? You're my homie, i could care less about your political views, personally I'm not that shallow.

but you're my boy dawg - the T-Shirt says it all

When I do my laundry I hang up all my ESDJCO t's in a nice row and go - wow look at that - everytime I get paid I buy at least 1 cause for every one I buy one gets old and played out

this one got red wine spilled on it so I only wear black now but I have at least 10 different T's in rotation now - props dawg!

LOL. word. I have a bunch of those shirts. I was dealing with the rep here in LA for a minute and he forwarded me a bunch of stuff to wear for gigs. I'm down with black shirts too. Makes me look thin. LOL.

rob.

[deva]

as always, the truth was/is somewhere down the middle. What I was trying to point out to Deva is that his source was extreme. By the same token, you could surmise that the white house point of view was extreme. So, hence the middle position.

Deva's article was just as bad in terms of non-bias, and yet, no one seems to call that into question simply because it is anti-administration. That's just as bad and a call for those that take those statements as "fact" shows their unimitigated bias.

Deva's article provides a lot of facutal information about DU. Information provided by multiple sources and independent medical studies

Since you can provide nothing that can refute the actual evidence, you can only rely on character attack on one individual who of course is an expert in a field you know zip about.

Then you rely on the old 'but Saddam is bad' schtick, which of course is somehow supposed to justify dropping 2000 tons of nuclear waste on the people of Iraq

Here is some more info for you:

In August of 2002, UMRC (Uranium Medical Research Center) completed its preliminary analysis of the results from Nangarhar. Without exception, every person donating urine specimens tested positive for uranium contamination. The specific results indicated an astoundingly high level of contamination; concentrations were 100 to 400 times greater than those of the Gulf War Veterans tested in 1999. A researcher reported. "We took both soil and biological samples, and found considerable presence in urine samples of radioactivity; the heavy concentration astonished us. They were beyond our wildest imagination."

In the fall of 2002, the UMRC field team went back to Afghanistan for a broader survey, and revealed a potentially larger exposure than initially anticipated. Approximately 30% of those interviewed in the affected areas displayed symptoms of radiation sickness. New born babies were among those displaying symptoms, with village elders reporting that over 25% of the infants were inexplicably ill.

How widespread and extensive is the exposure? A quote from the UMRC field report reads:

"The UMRC field team was shocked by the breadth of public health impacts coincident with the bombing. Without exception, at every bombsite investigated, people are ill. A significant portion of the civilian population presents symptoms consistent with internal contamination by uranium."

and btw, the truth is not always in the middle. Sometimes someone is telling the truth and someone else is lying.