about to go MacBook Pro - let's talk about audio interface

[controlvoltage]

Hola Live people,

I have been using Live 4 on a windoze PC, along with an RME Multiface audio interface. It's been great, but it's time to move on (and up)!

So I'm ready to drop a pile of ducats on a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro, and unfortunately the Multiface is not compatable. It's a shame as I really love the interface.

So, Mac users and laptop warriors: What is my best bet for a new audio i/o for my new beastie? Should I stick with RME, and if so can anyone comment on the merits of the Fireface 800 vs. the 400? Otherwise what is the best i/o out there in the sub-2k price range?

Here is my situation: I do solo music, mostly using a bunch of analog synths, MIDI-controlled by Live and running back in as Live audio tracks. I also play in a live industrial band where Live is the main mix hub; everyone's instrument runs in as a live channel so I can throw effects automation and sequenced mixing onto everything; vocals, guitar, synths and samplers...
Right now I use a separate mixer for mic pre-amps, but an audio interface with good mic/instrument inputs would be a plus as it would reduce the amount of gear I have to haul around.

So, drop some knowledge on me... I really appreciate the help and discussion.

Cheers!

-Amos

PS) Oh and I will definitely be upgrading to Live 6... that goes without saying

[tumult]

MOTU 828mkII or Traveler.

The Firefaces are really good, but keep in mind the Macbooks (both Pro and normal) do not have Firewire 800 ports, so you would be stuck with the Fireface 400. There's not much of a point to having an 800 port on the Macbooks, anyway, as a single Firewire 800 device that actually used the full 800 bus would bring the laptop to its knees..

Anyway, I think for the price, the 828mkII is a much better deal than the Fireface 400. Sure, you don't get 192khz recording and it's not bus powered, but it beats it in every other respect (including price).

[kuniklo]

How many i/o channels do you need? I'm having good luck with the MOTU Ultralite so far. Lots of I/O for such a small box, very portable, and only $500.

If you can afford it I think the RME stuff is probably tops in that price range but I think the Ultralite is more bang for the buck.

[Machinesworking]

MOTU 828mkII or Traveler.

The Firefaces are really good, but keep in mind the Macbooks (both Pro and normal) do not have Firewire 800 ports, so you would be stuck with the Fireface 400.

The 800 is mainly for daisy chaining three fireface 800's together, the devices don't even come with an 800 cord, as the 400 is just fine for one fireface to use every in and out at the same time.

There's not much of a point to having an 800 port on the Macbooks, anyway, as a single Firewire 800 device that actually used the full 800 bus would bring the laptop to its knees..

That's bullshit, sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about there. One fireface on my 1.5 Ghz G4 used about 8-12% resources, and on the macbook it's not even noticeable at all.

Anyway, I think for the price, the 828mkII is a much better deal than the Fireface 400. Sure, you don't get 192khz recording and it's not bus powered, but it beats it in every other respect (including price).

the features of the 400 and 828 are quite similar, but the converters on the 400 are universally considered better. The main thing is if you can hear the difference or not. I have an old 828 and a fireface 800, I can definitely hear the difference, but it's not night and day, it's relatively subtle.

[Machinesworking]

Right now I use a separate mixer for mic pre-amps, but an audio interface with good mic/instrument inputs would be a plus as it would reduce the amount of gear I have to haul around.

If you're absolutely certain you want to run OSX, then the Metric halo 2882 would be the best choice for this. I love the Fireface, but I do think the the 2882 would be a better choice for live use, and the pres are really good for what you're talking about.

[muthafunka]

If you're looking at the FF8/400, have a look at the Metric Halo Mobile I/O too. Bus powered and reputedly fantastic sound/pres/converters. I use a FF800 now and love it to bits, not only the hardware but the software too-amazingly flexible, esp. for the kind of thing you describe, although using the MF you probably know that already

[AdamJay]

another vote for metric halo 2882 with consideration to your particular needs.

[tumult]

MOTU 828mkII or Traveler.

The Firefaces are really good, but keep in mind the Macbooks (both Pro and normal) do not have Firewire 800 ports, so you would be stuck with the Fireface 400.

The 800 is mainly for daisy chaining three fireface 800's together, the devices don't even come with an 800 cord, as the 400 is just fine for one fireface to use every in and out at the same time.

There's not much of a point to having an 800 port on the Macbooks, anyway, as a single Firewire 800 device that actually used the full 800 bus would bring the laptop to its knees..

That's bullshit, sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about there. One fireface on my 1.5 Ghz G4 used about 8-12% resources, and on the macbook it's not even noticeable at all.

Anyway, I think for the price, the 828mkII is a much better deal than the Fireface 400. Sure, you don't get 192khz recording and it's not bus powered, but it beats it in every other respect (including price).

the features of the 400 and 828 are quite similar, but the converters on the 400 are universally considered better. The main thing is if you can hear the difference or not. I have an old 828 and a fireface 800, I can definitely hear the difference, but it's not night and day, it's relatively subtle.

You misunderstand, it's not the CPU that becomes taxed, but the system bus. I didn't know that the Fireface 800 could work in 400 mode, though. I looked on their site and didn't see that noted anywhere.

[Machinesworking]

You misunderstand, it's not the CPU that becomes taxed, but the system bus. I didn't know that the Fireface 800 could work in 400 mode, though. I looked on their site and didn't see that noted anywhere.

Once again, your not stating this from any point of knowledge, sorry, not trying to be harsh, but the macbooks have huge busses compared to older powerbooks, and nobody I know has ever complained about daisy chaining RME's at 800mhz. It's simply not a concern on newer machines. Besides Apple in their grand wisdom gave only a 400 port on all the macbooks except the 17" macbook pro.

I'm dammed sure it wouldn't be a problem with a firewire express card, but the only reason to run 800 is if you are using more than one fireface.

[buzzcock]

Metric Halo.

2882.

Period.

[tumult]

You misunderstand, it's not the CPU that becomes taxed, but the system bus. I didn't know that the Fireface 800 could work in 400 mode, though. I looked on their site and didn't see that noted anywhere.

Once again, your not stating this from any point of knowledge, sorry, not trying to be harsh, but the macbooks have huge busses compared to older powerbooks, and nobody I know has ever complained about daisy chaining RME's at 800mhz. It's simply not a concern on newer machines. Besides Apple in their grand wisdom gave only a 400 port on all the macbooks except the 17" macbook pro.

I'm dammed sure it wouldn't be a problem with a firewire express card, but the only reason to run 800 is if you are using more than one fireface.

Unfortunately, it's you who doesn't know what he's talking about FireWire 800 has nothing to do with mhz, but megabit/s. You can trash talk me all you want, but you actually do not know what you're talking about. A single FireWire 800 port is almost completely capable of overloading a PCI bus.

The initial MacBook Pros lacked the 800 port because of the way Intel has their motherboards designed. It's very different from the G4s and G5s -- Apple is one of the big backers of FireWire, so they made sure Motorola and IBM designed their systems from the ground up to handle FireWire without any hiccups. They do not have this luxury (or at least didn't with the MBP) with Intel.



This is the layout of the chipset in the 17" MBP. People familiar with Intel will recognize the North Bridge/South Bridge setup immediately. The two FireWire 800 ports are connected via a single PCI bus to the South Bridge, which in turn must interface with the North Bridge. Note that the 1394b spec allows for a single device to use all 800Mb/s of the port. The single 33mhz PCI bus is at best able to do 1066.66 Mbit/s, though in reality you will not get that kind of speed for the FireWire PCI bus on a South Bridge controller. So it's not only plausible to overload bus, but easily done if a device attempts to use the full bandwidth. Keep in mind this also ads overhead to the South Bridge, which is already interfacing with the other high-performance parts of the MBP.

It's true that Apple ships robust products that have been very well tested. However, you can't let idealism supersede technical facts.

Also, I don't appreciate being talked down to

[tylenol]

Macbooks (both Pro and normal) do not have Firewire 800 ports

The macbook pro 17" has a firewire 800 port.

[tumult]

You're right, when I first posted I didn't know the 17" models had FW800 -- but as you can see from my last post, I've figured that out by now

[Machinesworking]

It's true that Apple ships robust products that have been very well tested. However, you can't let idealism supersede technical facts.

Also, I don't appreciate being talked down to

I'm not talking down to you, you are going off about things based on theory, not based on your knowledge of the device at hand.
The fact is a single FW 800 port would suffice for daisy chaining a few firefaces. I'm quite sure RME, a PC centric company, would be quite capable of doing this in a brand new laptop. They've always done well with PC's. Why would a new macbook pro be any different?
No doubt you're an intelligent person, but it's really quite possible for any of us to know some things about the ideas behind a product, and not know the product.
The RME Fireface uses the 800 firewire protocol to link three fireface 800's together. It's not using the full bandwidth per say.
Also, I fail to see how a 800mb device running through a possible 1066Mb buss is a bottleneck? A possible one I suppose, but I doubt three RME's even gets close to 800..... Anyway, you aren't stupid, and I wasn't trying to talk down to you, but you don't really know what the RME is capable of, or how it works, yet you stated some things as fact, that simply aren't true.
Look I'm sorry you got insulted, but you don't know RME's products. You didn't know that the only reason RME has for the 800 is for daisy chaining, you thought it somehow took advantage of the whole bandwidth for the 48 I/O possible on the single 800, which simply isn't necessary. now we're just doing that internet miscommunication thing.....

[controlvoltage]

Well the Metric Halo box had flown completely under my radar until now...

It looks pretty sweet, I have to say. Can anyone comment on things like its driver latency - for live band into DSP-world then back out to PA, that is crucial...

also in the odd event that anyone has compared the quality of the converters between RME and Metric Halo, I'm very curious.

My setup typically uses 8ins and 2outs, but when I'm at home I could easily patch in more stuff

So a question for the RME users, re: the 800 vs 400...

I was thinking I would get the 17" MacBook Pro just to get the fw800 port actually, plus more storage, faster superdrive and whatnot. So, what does the fw800-port add to the Fireface 800, capability-wise, that the Fireface 400 does not have? Or is the choice of firewire port (400 vs 800) not particularly critical in this case? I know that the RME products differ in other ways, number of mic pre's and so on... just curious what the difference in the firewire spec is about.

Thanks! and stay frosty...

-Amos