Custom Automap and VST devices?

eddu · Post by **eddu** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:52 am

Hi,

Are macros in racks the only way to get custom maps to specific parameters on a VSTi/fx when using automap with MIDI controller? If this s the only way then i´ll be forced to make racks for every device i want to have my hands on control and that would be...well..

And..would putting only one VSTi/fx on a rack add more CPU than loading it without rack?

Thanks

blakflag · Post by **blakflag** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:56 pm

I know.. it seems ludicrous, to basically have the automap controlling whatever parameters the VST designer happened to put first in his list. So I can control the first 64 random parameters, in no useful order... WOO HOO! Combine that with the STILL 128 parameter limit for what params you can access at all, and it starts to suck.

I guess the racks do help solve this problem, but yes it seems odd to always have to use a rack when loading your favorite synth to get a custom map. Ableton needs a user-supplied public library of mappings for popular VSTs, to get us mapping.

I've been keeping a close eye on everyones progress with controller mapping.. so far it seems like no one has really got it totally right. All I need is my 8 dinky knobs and sliders to be useful!

Cakewalk and Ableton are both making concerted efforts tho, I give them that.

Kodama · Post by **Kodama** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:00 pm

pulsoc · Post by **pulsoc** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:15 pm

blakflag wrote:I know.. it seems ludicrous, to basically have the automap controlling whatever parameters the VST designer happened to put first in his list. So I can control the first 64 random parameters, in no useful order... WOO HOO! Combine that with the STILL 128 parameter limit for what params you can access at all, and it starts to suck.

I guess the racks do help solve this problem, but yes it seems odd to always have to use a rack when loading your favorite synth to get a custom map. Ableton needs a user-supplied public library of mappings for popular VSTs, to get us mapping.

I've been keeping a close eye on everyones progress with controller mapping.. so far it seems like no one has really got it totally right. All I need is my 8 dinky knobs and sliders to be useful!

Cakewalk and Ableton are both making concerted efforts tho, I give them that.

Curious - could you explain what you mean? What would be the right implementation?

blakflag · Post by **blakflag** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:08 am

pulsoc wrote:
blakflag wrote:I know.. it seems ludicrous, to basically have the automap controlling whatever parameters the VST designer happened to put first in his list. So I can control the first 64 random parameters, in no useful order... WOO HOO! Combine that with the STILL 128 parameter limit for what params you can access at all, and it starts to suck.

I guess the racks do help solve this problem, but yes it seems odd to always have to use a rack when loading your favorite synth to get a custom map. Ableton needs a user-supplied public library of mappings for popular VSTs, to get us mapping.

I've been keeping a close eye on everyones progress with controller mapping.. so far it seems like no one has really got it totally right. All I need is my 8 dinky knobs and sliders to be useful!

Cakewalk and Ableton are both making concerted efforts tho, I give them that.
Curious - could you explain what you mean? What would be the right implementation?

Hmm well I don't claim to have all the answers. But I'd start with something like a visual control panel that shows your controller map, like Sonar 6 shows you. Bring a VST into focus with your mouse, the control panel shows you what knob maps to what parameter. Maybe with visual feedback on the VST (if possible). It would be even cooler if the control panel looked like your physical controller except with little labels next to the knobs. Users could make their own "skins" to define their custom controllers.

Basically if I was dictator, I'd open up the mapping interface to the community. To be frank, why is Ableton bothering to map all these controllers anyway, they all send CC messages anyway. Just let the community make maps and share. Hell theres probly someone with every possible VST-controller combination possible. If everyone shared their maps, we'd have a custom parameter map for each controller-VST combination in existance quite shortly. And they'd MAKE SENSE, instead of being arbitrary 8 parameters on each bank of maps.

Anyway you were curious.. that's what I wished there was. An open spec for mapping Controller X to VST Y, that people could map and share. Anyone want to start a open source project? I bet we could convince at least some indie DAW developers to use it.

PS Mad props to Ableton.. Live 6 is really great. I'll be buying it as soon as my cash flow gets more positive. It's just not perfect IMHO.

eddu · Post by **eddu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:45 am

It would be great to get a bit of Ableton´s input on this issue before we start creating 1000 only-one-device racks!

Maybe user made mappings would be a solution but only partial, as what is good for your realtime tweaking maybe its not so good for mine and i just need others paramenters to be mapped.

Why not a interface similar to macros but just with VST devices? The eight knobs there with a midi map button, then you unpack the device (little triangle) to see Live´s interface to show the VST parameters and you are there...mapping. Then you hide the eight knobs, if you wish, and you save that mapping info with the VST device itself, so next time you dont have to worry about it.

blakflag · Post by **blakflag** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:30 pm

eddu wrote: Why not a interface similar to macros but just with VST devices? The eight knobs there with a midi map button, then you unpack the device (little triangle) to see Live´s interface to show the VST parameters and you are there...mapping. Then you hide the eight knobs, if you wish, and you save that mapping info with the VST device itself, so next time you dont have to worry about it.

That would certainly do for me. Just the old functionality that Ableton 5 had, except it just sticks with the VST for all projects and maybe has a little more labelling so you can see where you're mapped.

I do like the multiple banks though, in live 6. Which I can play with for 2 more days until the beta21 runs out.

It might be due to a deficiency in the VST spec itself that intelligent automaps are quite impossible. Because parameters aren't identified by function. I've heard VST 3.0 organizes parameters into "trees" which may give more insight into trying to choose intellignet default maps. Like the plugin authors could define tree branches of paramters that naturally go together (like all params for an oscillator), and then we could page through them with the bank buttons. Someday... like in 100 years.