this is the direction i'm looking to head in as well. long time Mac user here but currently my 12" PowerBook just isn't cutting for running lots of synths etc. lots of people have been telling me to just go ahead and build a "frankenPC" (ha!), as you put it, on the cheap but i've seen these in action and i'm not convinced. i've been looking at some name brand PCs and i like what i'm seeing from IBM. they appear to offer a basic system with no gimmicks, no quasi-futuristic cases, and very little bundled software, which is a good thing in my opinion. looks like they are a decent value for the price too. any thoughts on IBM brand desktops for music work?audioel wrote:...I have both a mac and a pc in the studio - the PC has the horsepower, but the mac has the stability and ease of use which make it the "brain". The PC runs softsynths and VST effects and is connected with digital audio and midi to the mac...
Mac vs. Pc laptops
thanks for the heads-up. i'll look elsewhere, maybe Sony? i wish "piece of piss" were a regular saying here in the US.mag wrote:I wouldnt advise an IBM desktop & i work for them
Now their Thinkpads are a different story.
Build your own system, its a piece of piss & theres loads of articles on the web on how to.
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Guest
Since I got my (older) powerbook I'm thinking the best route for me is to use the powerboook as my mobile and sell my PC laptop and stick a new motherboard and kickass processor in my old athlon desktop - in terms of grunt my PC laptop's been pretty good but It's been sitting on the same spot for most of the time defeating the purpose of a laptop - given that laptops are expensive I'm thinking if I scale down and just use a 'franken pc' (if you put in a VERY small effort you can sort it out alot cheaper) for all the grunt work and use the powerbook for 'sketching' on the go
lets face it, for live PAs I would want my keyboards and controllers with me so taking a desktop PC isn't that much hassle and SOOO much more useful - considering only 10 years ago the stuff you would have to lug out to a gig, one desktop tower isn't much really!
lets face it, for live PAs I would want my keyboards and controllers with me so taking a desktop PC isn't that much hassle and SOOO much more useful - considering only 10 years ago the stuff you would have to lug out to a gig, one desktop tower isn't much really!
I run a Mac/PC LAN for home studio...
Running a Mac / PC Lan @ home, and everything was fine (333 iMac - 1.54 ghz AMD box). Then my Creative card input stopped working on my pc. All my pc buddies told me that I should just re-install the drivers and that's normal... but WTF? Why should I have to do that? I've never heard of any of my Mac buddies having to do that. Then I got a virus (I believe it must've happened when my girlfriend was using I.E. , as I refuse to use it) on my pc - rendering it unusable when under any heavy load (completely blue screens). Now I use a router with password, and firewall on both, but the pc still got a virus (one that no virus software could fix). Now I'm having to back up over 120 cds worth of data of my pc, so that I can do a complete reformat (which will cost me, as I don't have the original XP pro CDs). This has lead me to have over 1.5 weeks of downtime (and counting). All this while my little iMac keeps ticking away no problem. Needless to say, I am saving up to buy a G4 tower. Unstability eventually = unusable product. I will never buy another pc. I think it's complete crap when an so called 'IT' expert tells me "If you're using the pc for work, why don't you keep it offline?"... no offense, but that's just a sad joke.
So, for your sake...
I hope you get a Mac.
So, for your sake...
I hope you get a Mac.
It's a MUCH better idea to build your own pc, it's off the shelf units that give them a bad name. All the components you get are warrentied separately for a start which is a major advantage, and you get to make damn sure everything is compatible. You don't need all the other consumer shite if you just want to build a music system.
If you go to a site like http://www.sub.co.uk/ you can put together a "virtual machine" by choosing from a list of guaranteed and tested components. You can then order the computer and they build it for you. On the other hand you can copy the list of components on to a bit of paper and order them yourself (which is what I did) and save about a grand!
Bit naughty really but there you go.
I've never had a second's problem, this machine runs like a bastard.
If you go to a site like http://www.sub.co.uk/ you can put together a "virtual machine" by choosing from a list of guaranteed and tested components. You can then order the computer and they build it for you. On the other hand you can copy the list of components on to a bit of paper and order them yourself (which is what I did) and save about a grand!
Bit naughty really but there you go.I've never had a second's problem, this machine runs like a bastard.
Neutronix, it's a shame you chose a Creative soundcard as they're not really pro kit, they work ok for a while then tend to crap out. You gets what you pays for. There's nothing to stop you hooking up a 24 in/out MOTU if you have the cash.
The virus thing is becoming a bit of a pain, i have an old machine networked to my main one and that deals with internet stuff. Anyway, viruses are a complete no-brainer to deal with. I've never had one do me any damage at all. That said, I do wish there weren't so many wankers in the world who think fucking up the net's such a great idea.
The virus thing is becoming a bit of a pain, i have an old machine networked to my main one and that deals with internet stuff. Anyway, viruses are a complete no-brainer to deal with. I've never had one do me any damage at all. That said, I do wish there weren't so many wankers in the world who think fucking up the net's such a great idea.
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UknowWho
To the person that also said live works best of a Mac ummm is that running a G5 
.............
Seriously try running Live ,Reason & Protools on a 1.7ghz Centrino and then do the same on a Powerbook (actually for the equivalent price range we're talking ibook here
....
And then tell me which one runs better.
Reason on its own with good F/W drive can pump out around 24-26 track with plenty of plug-ins easily on this system.
Pro-tools can pump out a full 32 tracks with 5 plug ins...
OSX really is to big an OS for the G4 to handle at 1.0-1.25ghz IMHO....
.............Seriously try running Live ,Reason & Protools on a 1.7ghz Centrino and then do the same on a Powerbook (actually for the equivalent price range we're talking ibook here
....And then tell me which one runs better.
Reason on its own with good F/W drive can pump out around 24-26 track with plenty of plug-ins easily on this system.
Pro-tools can pump out a full 32 tracks with 5 plug ins...
OSX really is to big an OS for the G4 to handle at 1.0-1.25ghz IMHO....
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mic-minimal
I'm running a centrino 900mhz panasonic w2 right now,and it's doing fine but I'm still saving up for a fckin g5laptop when ever they come out, I just don't think I can resist and I believe having both is the best way to go. I also plan on getting another roland sp-808 (that i sold), I can't believe how underrated it actualy was, it was the perfect companion for my turntables, add to that an mpc-1000 and a full size controller and I'll be set
hey what the fuck is xnews
hey what the fuck is xnews
agreed. i think the G5 is literally the first machine that can truly run OS X properly. i've tried everything to help my 6 month old PowerBook chug along better but with no real success. everything from techtool pro to clean OS installs to running my screen in grayscale. the truth is simply that the G4 is an old dog that should have been put to sleep long ago.UknowWho wrote:...OSX really is to big an OS for the G4 to handle at 1.0-1.25ghz IMHO....
that's one thing that kills me about Apple last year. they create all this neat software targeted directly at the consumer market and the consumer line of machines can't even run the software, or the OS. ever see iMovie try to run on an iBook? it's quite a laugh.
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Guest
it's interesting to hear this. I'm running jaguar on a firewire pismo 400mHz and while it's not particularly impressive with live (but still useful)one thing I'm sure of is that since I've stuck 1gig of ram in it there are a hell of a lot of things it absolutely flies on - every bit as fast as my pc laptop with athlon 2200+ and 512ddr - obviously these must be ram type things and on the CPU heavy stuff there's no comparison but I'm surprised to hear you saying this about osx as I've found with all that ram it flies. I've also got one of the powerlogix upgrade to 900mHz chips coming and I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing what how it ends up because pure and simple I prefer the mac, and I've been using PCs since about 96-97 when hard disk recording was only just really affordable to poor musicians on a PC (I started with micrologic midi only on mac) and more to the point Macs hold their value alot better than PCstjwett wrote:agreed. i think the G5 is literally the first machine that can truly run OS X properly. i've tried everything to help my 6 month old PowerBook chug along better but with no real success. everything from techtool pro to clean OS installs to running my screen in grayscale. the truth is simply that the G4 is an old dog that should have been put to sleep long ago.UknowWho wrote:...OSX really is to big an OS for the G4 to handle at 1.0-1.25ghz IMHO....
that's one thing that kills me about Apple last year. they create all this neat software targeted directly at the consumer market and the consumer line of machines can't even run the software, or the OS. ever see iMovie try to run on an iBook? it's quite a laugh.
But like I said earlier on, I don't see the point in spending craploads of money on a laptop that really only has about 2-3 years of life in it tops before the technology's moved on so much that you need a new one to cut it (bearing in mind 3-4 years ago I was still using a pentium II 266 for audio! that's how big the jump has been in that time!!!) while here's my powerbook made in 200 and I can easily take out the procesor board and replace it with on double the speeed and it's still relevant.
No I really think the best way of keeping up is to build a PC because you can so easily upgrade it, which is becoming more and more important because future software releases will only run on the ultra-mega-beastie machines and you'll be sitting there with a very expensive PC laptop that after only 2 years is less than half its value, while the macs carry on holding their resale value. Mac for mobile PC for main workstation is my vote.
cheers
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UKnowWho
Ummm really though ...
Wait till the G5 laptops come out and we have second gen.. G5 processors and see how well the old Mac starts looking...
I got my last PC 98 and only bought a new one this year ...
So your point is
I think alot of this keeping up with the jones's mentality doesn't necessarily permmiate Mac user communities.
It's like the old hardware gearwhore syndrome.
If you get a good solid system and load it with handful of carefully chosen apps it should last you quite a few years IMHO.
I buying my first laptop in a few weeks ...
Goin Centrino + F/W drive.
Live ,Reason ,Project 5 ,Reaktor ,Soundforge and holding out on Pluggo for Windows which is in current development.
To be honest with you ; more than enough to get quite a few years worth of serious work out of.
My Atari 1040ST did a good 10 year stint also.
My EMU EII+ Hd is still kicking on.
I just think Mac user's have a greater propensity to utilise the tools given to them more resourcefully and economically....
Lastly I think the Centrino has finally delivered a PC equivalent of a Mac in some respects , low CPU overhead , a well utilised processing system and a feature set that could easily be milked for 10 years with the right choice of initial tools and innovative compromises.
Sure there's always another CPU munchin' uber synth round the corner but how much will your work actually benefit from buying it....
I mean I've had the same Bass Guitar since I was 14 so we're talking 22 years now.
I don't see necessarily why tech tools should be thrown on the redundency scrap heap so fast when they're perfectly good when used within a particular context.
Wait till the G5 laptops come out and we have second gen.. G5 processors and see how well the old Mac starts looking...
I got my last PC 98 and only bought a new one this year ...
So your point is
I think alot of this keeping up with the jones's mentality doesn't necessarily permmiate Mac user communities.
It's like the old hardware gearwhore syndrome.
If you get a good solid system and load it with handful of carefully chosen apps it should last you quite a few years IMHO.
I buying my first laptop in a few weeks ...
Goin Centrino + F/W drive.
Live ,Reason ,Project 5 ,Reaktor ,Soundforge and holding out on Pluggo for Windows which is in current development.
To be honest with you ; more than enough to get quite a few years worth of serious work out of.
My Atari 1040ST did a good 10 year stint also.
My EMU EII+ Hd is still kicking on.
I just think Mac user's have a greater propensity to utilise the tools given to them more resourcefully and economically....
Lastly I think the Centrino has finally delivered a PC equivalent of a Mac in some respects , low CPU overhead , a well utilised processing system and a feature set that could easily be milked for 10 years with the right choice of initial tools and innovative compromises.
Sure there's always another CPU munchin' uber synth round the corner but how much will your work actually benefit from buying it....
I mean I've had the same Bass Guitar since I was 14 so we're talking 22 years now.
I don't see necessarily why tech tools should be thrown on the redundency scrap heap so fast when they're perfectly good when used within a particular context.
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Per Boysen
- Posts: 1058
- Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:11 pm
- Location: Sweden
- Contact:
Well put, UKnowWho!
I think the best strategy is to simply make up your mind on what you want to do. After you've done that it's easier to find the right gear. As for me, I work a lot in Logic and I want to expand my live act with Numerolgy - so I practically have to go Mac. Not because "Mac is better" but because it's the tool coming in most handy with my work.
And the longer you keep a certain tool the better you get at using it!
My tenor sax was built in 1914 so I'm somtimes getting this feeling that the sax is using me as a tool - not the other way around
I think the best strategy is to simply make up your mind on what you want to do. After you've done that it's easier to find the right gear. As for me, I work a lot in Logic and I want to expand my live act with Numerolgy - so I practically have to go Mac. Not because "Mac is better" but because it's the tool coming in most handy with my work.
And the longer you keep a certain tool the better you get at using it!
My tenor sax was built in 1914 so I'm somtimes getting this feeling that the sax is using me as a tool - not the other way around
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shaneblyth
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:02 am
Hopefully this is a sane reply fo you..
I have used PC's for years.. run my own PC business sales repairs etc.
only got a G4 1.5ghz a month ago and love it.
took a bit of getting use to but as an overall package I would say it is a better setup than any of the 3 PC's I have... though I believe a PC can be great too.
Interesting comments about G4's not being fast enough I use mine with Live, Digital Perfomer and a few other Apps and am pleased with the peformance.
There are some nice graphs about to show you perfomance comparisons with a Duel 3.2GHZ Xenon PC and various G5 Macs do the standard set of office apps. The 2.5GHZ G5 is rated 98% faster than the PC... all the other G5's wee significantly faster than the Xenon. (didnt have the Imacs which would be reasonible amount slower than the duel G5's)
One issue with PC's is the huge variety in parts.. this I feel causes the most issues apart from the secuity issues.
Still that said a PC with the correct combo of parts and good clean install can be crafted to a vey decent solution.
I dont really see that you would save alot if anything on a PC/MAC price setup... Macs are generally dearer but for whats in them to spec a pc the same and the same software there is not alot in it.
Geneally a PC costs more in running costs... unless you are pretty technical minded that is... the extra cost of Vius scannes spyware software and updates add to you daily costs.. and geneally moe down time.. more tech callouts and they tend to have a shorte life cycle.
After 2 yeas owneship a Mac and PC are consideed equal in cost due to less tech support... most pc user upgade evey 2 years and Mac users every 5... these are generalisations of course but independently done (PS I dont sell Mac only PC's that is where I make my money in callouts and repairs)
Because I-Life comes free with any new mac this can help..
This includes Movie photo DVD making (movies to a real dvd like you get fom the vid store) and garageband is a great app for musos and there you go. And they are incredibly easy to use as well. I was quite astonished at the polish and ease of use. I find I am much more productive . Did I mention Hispeed WIFI, fireware 400 and 800,, DVI outs S Videos outs.. the list of what came standard on my G4 laptop staggered me and overall for the money it is hard to beat really.
But still if you are happy to go PC if you are careful and do it right you will have plenty of productive time..
Me I am hooked.. I dont want to go back to my PC (It is siting in the corner next to my Toshiba Laptop)
whatever you choose just make some decent music... even if it is on an old tape deck!.. thats what counts..
I have used PC's for years.. run my own PC business sales repairs etc.
only got a G4 1.5ghz a month ago and love it.
took a bit of getting use to but as an overall package I would say it is a better setup than any of the 3 PC's I have... though I believe a PC can be great too.
Interesting comments about G4's not being fast enough I use mine with Live, Digital Perfomer and a few other Apps and am pleased with the peformance.
There are some nice graphs about to show you perfomance comparisons with a Duel 3.2GHZ Xenon PC and various G5 Macs do the standard set of office apps. The 2.5GHZ G5 is rated 98% faster than the PC... all the other G5's wee significantly faster than the Xenon. (didnt have the Imacs which would be reasonible amount slower than the duel G5's)
One issue with PC's is the huge variety in parts.. this I feel causes the most issues apart from the secuity issues.
Still that said a PC with the correct combo of parts and good clean install can be crafted to a vey decent solution.
I dont really see that you would save alot if anything on a PC/MAC price setup... Macs are generally dearer but for whats in them to spec a pc the same and the same software there is not alot in it.
Geneally a PC costs more in running costs... unless you are pretty technical minded that is... the extra cost of Vius scannes spyware software and updates add to you daily costs.. and geneally moe down time.. more tech callouts and they tend to have a shorte life cycle.
After 2 yeas owneship a Mac and PC are consideed equal in cost due to less tech support... most pc user upgade evey 2 years and Mac users every 5... these are generalisations of course but independently done (PS I dont sell Mac only PC's that is where I make my money in callouts and repairs)
Because I-Life comes free with any new mac this can help..
This includes Movie photo DVD making (movies to a real dvd like you get fom the vid store) and garageband is a great app for musos and there you go. And they are incredibly easy to use as well. I was quite astonished at the polish and ease of use. I find I am much more productive . Did I mention Hispeed WIFI, fireware 400 and 800,, DVI outs S Videos outs.. the list of what came standard on my G4 laptop staggered me and overall for the money it is hard to beat really.
But still if you are happy to go PC if you are careful and do it right you will have plenty of productive time..
Me I am hooked.. I dont want to go back to my PC (It is siting in the corner next to my Toshiba Laptop)
whatever you choose just make some decent music... even if it is on an old tape deck!.. thats what counts..
some folks simply demand more power for Ableton Live 4 than a 1.5ghz G4 or even a dual G5 can give for the amount of money you spend.
you say "I dont really see that you would save alot if anything on a PC/MAC price setup"
Well, i am here to show you
On the Apple side you get:
Apple Powerbook G4
• 1.5GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
• 512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x256 SO-DIMMs
• 80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
• SuperDrive (4x DVD-R/CD-RW)
• AirPort Extreme Card
• OSX Panther & iLife '04
• 15.2-inch Wide TFT (1280x800) Display
• Gigabit Ethernet, FW400, FW800, USB2
Subtotal $2,549.00 Plus tax and shipping. 1 Year Warranty Included. Yes Apple.com does charge sales tax if there is an Apple store anywhere in your state. At an average state sales tax of 6%, thats an additional $153 in tax.
On the PC Side (HP) you get:
HP Pavilion zv5000z series notebook (hpshopping.com)
• AMD Athlon(TM) 64 3000+ 1.80 GHz with 64MB Graphics Memory
• 512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x256 SO-DIMMs
• 80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
• SuperDrive (4x DVD-R/CD-RW)
• 802.11b/g WLAN
• Microsoft XP Home & MS Works/Money
• 15.4" WXGA (1280x800) Display
• 12 Cell Lithium Ion Battery
• 10/100 Ethernet, FW400, USB2, 5-in-1 Card Reader
$1,449.00 Total. No Tax. Free Shipping. 1 Year Warranty Included. Plus a $50 mail-in rebate if you so choose to use it.
The Live 4 Performance Test ( http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12375 )which has benchmarked Ableton Live 4's performance on more than 100 machines has shown us the Apple G4 1.5ghz Powerbook runs Ableton Live 4 at only 55% the effeciency of the HP with Athlon 64 3000+.
The machines are quite comparable specification wise. Same HD / Ram / Super Drive / WiFi / Screen / Video Ram ... even Battery Life. The HP gains a card reader at the expense of FW800 and Gigabit Ethernet and vice versa.
So, it really comes down to Operating System preference. If you prefer to use The FASTEST available Macintosh Laptop, you are essentially paying $1100 (plus tax and shipping) MORE for a machine that performs in Ableton Live 4 just over half as well as the PC equivalent.
I love MacOS, beleive me. the improvements from Jaguar to Panther were just amazing! but is the OS worth $1100 ? Or would you rather buy the HP, save $1100 to gain performance by nearly 2x, and pay $39 for Norton Antivirus (hell you could use the rebate for that!)?
(just for arguments sake, add $100 on the HP to get an Athlon 64 3400, this will perform equivalent to a $3,000 Dual 2.5ghz G5. Thats 1/2 the price for a PC with equivalent performance to Apple's best offering. AND its a laptop rather than a desktop. Or, add $200 to get an Athlon 64 3700, this will perform BETTER than a $3,000 Dual 2.5ghz G5. )
I've owned both Macs and PCs for years and the whole "stability" issue died after the Win98, 98SE, ME b.s. They are both equally stable platforms. Anyone buying a computer and using ableton live is going to soon find out that there are no differences between the Mac and Windows versions of Ableton Live.
you say "I dont really see that you would save alot if anything on a PC/MAC price setup"
Well, i am here to show you
On the Apple side you get:
Apple Powerbook G4
• 1.5GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
• 512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x256 SO-DIMMs
• 80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
• SuperDrive (4x DVD-R/CD-RW)
• AirPort Extreme Card
• OSX Panther & iLife '04
• 15.2-inch Wide TFT (1280x800) Display
• Gigabit Ethernet, FW400, FW800, USB2
Subtotal $2,549.00 Plus tax and shipping. 1 Year Warranty Included. Yes Apple.com does charge sales tax if there is an Apple store anywhere in your state. At an average state sales tax of 6%, thats an additional $153 in tax.
On the PC Side (HP) you get:
HP Pavilion zv5000z series notebook (hpshopping.com)
• AMD Athlon(TM) 64 3000+ 1.80 GHz with 64MB Graphics Memory
• 512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x256 SO-DIMMs
• 80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
• SuperDrive (4x DVD-R/CD-RW)
• 802.11b/g WLAN
• Microsoft XP Home & MS Works/Money
• 15.4" WXGA (1280x800) Display
• 12 Cell Lithium Ion Battery
• 10/100 Ethernet, FW400, USB2, 5-in-1 Card Reader
$1,449.00 Total. No Tax. Free Shipping. 1 Year Warranty Included. Plus a $50 mail-in rebate if you so choose to use it.
The Live 4 Performance Test ( http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12375 )which has benchmarked Ableton Live 4's performance on more than 100 machines has shown us the Apple G4 1.5ghz Powerbook runs Ableton Live 4 at only 55% the effeciency of the HP with Athlon 64 3000+.
The machines are quite comparable specification wise. Same HD / Ram / Super Drive / WiFi / Screen / Video Ram ... even Battery Life. The HP gains a card reader at the expense of FW800 and Gigabit Ethernet and vice versa.
So, it really comes down to Operating System preference. If you prefer to use The FASTEST available Macintosh Laptop, you are essentially paying $1100 (plus tax and shipping) MORE for a machine that performs in Ableton Live 4 just over half as well as the PC equivalent.
I love MacOS, beleive me. the improvements from Jaguar to Panther were just amazing! but is the OS worth $1100 ? Or would you rather buy the HP, save $1100 to gain performance by nearly 2x, and pay $39 for Norton Antivirus (hell you could use the rebate for that!)?
(just for arguments sake, add $100 on the HP to get an Athlon 64 3400, this will perform equivalent to a $3,000 Dual 2.5ghz G5. Thats 1/2 the price for a PC with equivalent performance to Apple's best offering. AND its a laptop rather than a desktop. Or, add $200 to get an Athlon 64 3700, this will perform BETTER than a $3,000 Dual 2.5ghz G5. )
I've owned both Macs and PCs for years and the whole "stability" issue died after the Win98, 98SE, ME b.s. They are both equally stable platforms. Anyone buying a computer and using ableton live is going to soon find out that there are no differences between the Mac and Windows versions of Ableton Live.