Ableton! Tighten the Sequencer!

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:03 pm

i am confused.

i believe the original poster is referring to the sequencer itself, without regard to sync.

i also do a lot of stuff under 100bpm and can't say that i've ever noticed anything unusal about the sequencer.

i'm also not sure to make of folks saying that live's sequencer has a "feel of it's own" -----> as far as i can tell, without using the groove function, straight 1/8th notes, or straight 16ths or whatever are the same on any sequencer. I still use my mpc2000 on occasion, and it's straight 16ths sound the same as ableton's. (although i remember a pointless debate about hardware sequencers being "tighter". What horseshit. If someone can prove that they can hear the difference between straight 16ths on an mpc vs. straight 16ths on live in a blind test i'll eat my hat and post a video of me eating said hat.)

So what are people talking about?

.lm.

Spiralgroove · Post by **Spiralgroove** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:06 pm

at this point i pretty much think anybody that comes on here talking shit about ableton are just trolling

maybe 2% of complaints are legitimate
and its usually people with very unique setups or working conditions

captain4 · Post by **captain4** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:14 pm

I hear a very notable difference in all honestly , I have run live on both pc and MAC, the timing is defo looser than that when I compare it to my copy of cubase, and compared to the timing of older systems there is a big difference in tightness, abletons timing does seem to work nice with slower tempos but anything fast and I hear it get sloppy. For using external hardware I keep using an atari 1040st, because ableton just seems that bit too loose. Looking forward to getting stuck into 6 though, things can only get better. outside that loving ableton

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:29 pm

simply record a long pass with external or internal sounds, preferably with some midi that has real world density, and then record a second identical pass. Now, flip the phase or zoom in and take a look. For sync, consider the diff between beat clock and mtc. Oh, and try some differnt tempos. Cheers

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:03 pm

well, i'm at work right now, shall i assume you've already done this or are you just suggesting this as a test?

about sync----> i *do* think there is a problem with sync and ableton, or at least here has been up till now, i haven't tried with 6 yet. But yeah, i've had a lot of problems with sync in both 4 and 5. (both beat clock and MTC and as both master and slave. it's esp. bad when smoothly changing tempos)

.lm.

Willyum · Post by **Willyum** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:30 pm

Not sure what version you guys are using but Live does have an accuracy slider in the quantize prefrences so that you can adjust how tight the quantinization is. I usually leave mine at between 80 - 90% so that my chords still feel natural. and when I record my drums, I record the kick on the one and my snare on the 2 and 4 (if that's how my pattern will be) at 100% then record the rest of the pattern at 90 % so that it's still organic.

Maybe when you guys quantize you may not have noticed this small accurracy slider?

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:36 pm

yes it is really noticable when using a couple of arpegiators.... the midi timing is very weak when it is getting busy....

I won`t upgrade to 6. when the abes will do something for musicians then I will be back. Same old fixes needed since v4.

-auto oscillation of vsti parameters
-128 parameters limit
-no midi message filtering (for exemple filtering the mod wheel in splits)
-messy real-time midi recording when looping
-no proper step time recording
-poor quantization both real-time and editing

why don`t you people give us a real midi sequencer for a change

and stop re-inventing the wheel with sampler and cheesy sounding fx

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:38 pm

Spiralgroove wrote:at this point i pretty much think anybody that comes on here talking shit about ableton are just trolling

maybe 2% of complaints are legitimate
and its usually people with very unique setups or working conditions

that is false, if you do not get the problem then you are not using a lot of midi messages

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:51 pm

hmmmm, maybe i'm just not getting this one because of how i use the program:

i do use midi for virtual instruments , but i commit to audio ASAP to avoid cpu issues (my comp is pretty weak). the only external midi instruments i use are my kenton pro-->sh-101 and my oberhiem matrix 1000, both of which i never have to send a lot of midi information for, but they work fine when i use em.

i dunno, maybe this is an issue for folks doing a lot more with midi?? really?? still seems pretty implausible.

.lm.

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:55 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:i am confused.

i believe the original poster is referring to the sequencer itself, without regard to sync.

So what are people talking about?

.lm.

Agreed what the fuck are they talking about. They just post without any thought and then why I probe further they come back with as little an answer as possible. he doesnt say what midi interface hes using, does it happen with VSTis what the external synth or workstation is. At this point he still hasnt said so its fucking bullshit coming from a total amateur. I get really sick and tired of this bullshit on here. I actually do want to help people but they are so fucking thick its nearly impossible.

This is how it should be:
A
I seem to have a midi timing problem. Im sending a clock to my MPC Yamaha Zero synth as I program my drums in to that. On playback the timing seems to be off maybe a little late. I have a M Audio 12/2 sound card with a built in midi port.

B
I seem to have a midi timing problem. Im sending a clock to my MPC Yamaha Zero synth as I program my drums in to that. On playback the timing seems to be off maybe a little late. I have a M Audio 12/2 sound card and I use an MT8 midi interface.

C
I seem to have a midi timing problem. Im sending midi note information to my Yamaha Zero synth as I use that as a sound source for my drums. On playback the timing seems to be off maybe a little late. I have a M Audio 12/2 sound card and I use an MT8 midi interface.

warp_kid · Post by **warp_kid** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:58 pm

WaveRider wrote:yes it is really noticable when using a couple of arpegiators.... the midi timing is very weak when it is getting busy....

I won`t upgrade to 6. when the abes will do something for musicians then I will be back. Same old fixes needed since v4.

-auto oscillation of vsti parameters
-128 parameters limit
-no midi message filtering (for exemple filtering the mod wheel in splits)
-messy real-time midi recording when looping
-no proper step time recording
-poor quantization both real-time and editing

why don`t you people give us a real midi sequencer for a change

and stop re-inventing the wheel with sampler and cheesy sounding fx

Out of interest which version do you currently use?
Have you actually used version 6? Could you confirm that the issues in your list are still, in fact, issues? Did you even try version 5?
Im not sure what you mean by poor quantization, and messy midi recording when looping either. Could you be more specific?

Also, which of the effects do you find cheesy? That opinion I find slightly confusing.

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:03 pm

captain4 wrote:I hear a very notable difference in all honestly , I have run live on both pc and MAC, the timing is defo looser than that when I compare it to my copy of cubase, and compared to the timing of older systems there is a big difference in tightness, abletons timing does seem to work nice with slower tempos but anything fast and I hear it get sloppy. For using external hardware I keep using an atari 1040st, because ableton just seems that bit too loose. Looking forward to getting stuck into 6 though, things can only get better. outside that loving ableton

There is now way in this universe an Ataris timing is better than Live. How the fuck can live be worse if your using a VSTi with latency compensation through out not forgetting the ridiculously high midi resolution of any modern daw. I think the atari is 96ppqn and live will be huge compared to that.
When you say timing explain what you mean. Sync timing? VSti timing, just sending external midi to a synth. What timing are you on about!
Are you aware that many hardware modules start chocking and then your timing goes to hell. Are you also aware that while you think the atari is tighter you probably just prefer the feel of the ataris midi sequencers because I can assure you mate its not tighter. Did you know that the first track on your atari is tighter than the last track Yes, tahts how the atari worked. Midi priority is given to the top track the rest are slightly delayed but that can often give your music a feel. I find Live just to damn rigid. If I send to external midi boxes the timing is a little looser than a VSTi but thats not Live its my external boxes.

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:08 pm

WaveRider wrote:yes it is really noticable when using a couple of arpegiators.... the midi timing is very weak when it is getting busy....

I won`t upgrade to 6. when the abes will do something for musicians then I will be back. Same old fixes needed since v4.

-auto oscillation of vsti parameters
-128 parameters limit
-no midi message filtering (for exemple filtering the mod wheel in splits)
-messy real-time midi recording when looping
-no proper step time recording
-poor quantization both real-time and editing

why don`t you people give us a real midi sequencer for a change

and stop re-inventing the wheel with sampler and cheesy sounding fx

so its only noticeable when using a couple of appregiators WHAT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Abletons???????? external ones???? Describe your problems properly for christ sakes. trying to get external appregiators to sync has been difficult from teh day they were invented. Im not saying you dont have a problem you could very well have one but again you give no information, just a couple of appregiators.

I do agree with this :

why don`t you people give us a real midi sequencer for a change
and stop re-inventing the wheel with sampler and cheesy sounding fx

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:17 pm

knotkranky wrote:simply record a long pass with external or internal sounds, preferably with some midi that has real world density, and then record a second identical pass. Now, flip the phase or zoom in and take a look. For sync, consider the diff between beat clock and mtc. Oh, and try some differnt tempos. Cheers

That assumes there would be no midi drift coming from the output of the external sound module or synth. All hardware synths and modules can only work within certain limits so 100% total accuracy cannot be achieved. A phase test is not conclusive a vsti is a different matter and I think the test could be done using one of those.
Sync again is a different matter and can be a number of factors contributing. If there is any problems I suspect its the midi sync clock but Im not going to be hard on ableton for that. I havent yet to this day used a 100% accurate midi clock from any of the daws including pro tools and it seems to be a problem linked to audio for all daws.

deva · Post by **deva** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:14 pm

I'm a musician. I put my hands on my keyboard and play music. I think Live 6 has a lot to offer.

First, the dual cpu support is huge. Being able to play music with much less worry about cpu issues, far fewer glitches, and interuptions is a big advance for the playing musician.

Second, the new racks make it much easier for me to make use of my VST instruments and effects to their potential. It is so useful to be able to save a rack with layered synths and effects as a preset. This is very useful for the playing musician. Being able to control multiple parameters with 1 knob is also an excellent new feature.

With automapping on the new rack macros, the performance musician now has a level of realtime control that was not possible in Live 5.

That right there is more than enough to make Live 6 a no brainer.

and some of the things you list below, while I agree would be nice additions, can be worked around fairly easily in the meantime.

I would not trade racks and multi-cpu support for all of them.

cheers

WaveRider wrote: I won`t upgrade to 6. when the abes will do something for musicians then I will be back. Same old fixes needed since v4.

-auto oscillation of vsti parameters
-128 parameters limit
-no midi message filtering (for exemple filtering the mod wheel in splits)
-messy real-time midi recording when looping
-no proper step time recording
-poor quantization both real-time and editing

why don`t you people give us a real midi sequencer for a change

and stop re-inventing the wheel with sampler and cheesy sounding fx

Ableton! Tighten the Sequencer!

Tighten up the Sequencer?