Warp to triplet values?

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:41 pm

Hi - maybe this is a dumb question, but...I want to warp clips to values other than straight beats, ie, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32. I want to take straight clips and warp them to swing values. But when I'm moving warp markers on a clip, they only show the even divisions of the grid. I know I can straighten out a clip and then adjust the global swing value, but that's not what I want to do. I just want to swing certain clips, so I want to be able to see the triplet values for warp markers. Is that not possible in Live?

A related problem I found when trying to accomplish this is that Live doesn't seem to handle different meters for clips the way I would expect. ie, I have an arrangement in 4/4. I'm trying to warp a clip to swing values, so I tried setting the meter for the clip to 12/8 thinking that would then give me warp marker values reflecting a 3:2 feel for this clip in relation to an otherwise 4/4 arrangement...but it didn't work...in fact, Live doesn't play the "12/8" clip in the same time as a regular 4/4 bar...instead it counts the 12/8 clip as a bar and a half of 1/8 notes. If I have a 4/4 arrangement, and I set one particular clip to be 12/8, what I mean to make Live think is: play this 12/8 bar in the same amount of time as one 4/4 bar, which is the meter for the arrangement. Doesn't that make sense? It does to me...but it doesn't work.

So is there any way to do this? Why can't I simply change the displayed grid value for warp markers so I can warp to other than even beat divisions?

And lastly, the multi-clip warping feature in Live is nice, but at the same time the feature has been implemented in a very limited way. I want to be able to import 12 tracks of multichannel drums, set the clips to all start on bar 1, select all 12 clips, and then choose the "warp from here" option in the clip view and have Live warp all 12 clips locked together at once...but it won't do it. I figured out how to workaround the problem, but its very tedious. And also, Live is very finicky about how the clips are displayed when multiple clips are selected, so I've found I have to move whatever clip I'm using as the "master multi-clip" to adjust my warp markers to the top of the list of multiple clips I've selected...put another way, if I have kick, snare, hat...select all 3 clips...and I want to add multi-clip warp markers to the hat, then the hat has to be the first track in the arrangement page among the 3 for me to see the hat clip in clip view and displayed properly. So...multi-clip warping...cool feature...but needs a little work.

But the swing thing is really killing me...surely someone knows a solution for this? Or does everyone using Live just conform their clips to straight feel and then use global swing? I really don't want to do that...sigh...

Thanks,
Bryan

Spiralgroove · Post by **Spiralgroove** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:15 pm

ctrl+3 is the triplets grid

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:21 am

You're talking about the triplet grid for the arrangement page. I'm talking about the displayed grid values for the warp markers.

Anyone else?

soundsliketree · Post by **soundsliketree** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:33 am

I've also noticed this behavior about the meters and have desired triplet warp grids. You're not alone. Sorry I couldn't have been more help.

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:46 am

Hey soundsliketree...thanks for adding your comment. I wonder how many people have felt the need for this? If more would chime in, perhaps it might get implemented...? Live is an amazing tool, but at the same time, sometimes it feels very limited to me. Triplet values for warp markers seems like an obvious ommission, and the multi-clip warping is clearly rev 1, tho' it does work if you fiddle with it enough.

The biggest bummer of all...the thing I've been wanting since I started using Live back in v2.0 is for Live to be able to auto-warp a clip (ie, automatically create warp markers at all the transients in a clip), and then be able to apply any groove (not just a basic swing groove) to any clip. The way Ableton implemented master/slave clips in v6.0 is one step on the path to that functionality - but again, it's not quite there yet. I want to be able to import a clip, auto-warp it so it's "straightened out", make it a master clip, then apply a groove to it (captured from another clip) to make the master clip have a different feel, and because it's a master clip, that feel will also be applied to all the other clips playing at that time.

...so...we're kind of halfway there...

I hope Ableton is listening...

-Bryan

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:24 pm

i'm not discounting your desire for this feature,

but do you really need to place that many warp markers, that they're going to be all over the place inside bars? I usually only put them on 1 beats, for example, so if there's triplet timing within the bar or not, it makes no difference really.

anyway, sometimes i use a combination of viewing the arrangement grid and the clip view for warping. so you could watch the triplet grid above and warp the clip using the straight markers such that the triplets line up above... just an idea

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:41 pm

longjohns wrote:i'm not discounting your desire for this feature,

but do you really need to place that many warp markers, that they're going to be all over the place inside bars?

No, not always - but occasionally yes. It just depends how many samples and loops I'm stacking together and how tight I need everything to sound. For example, I did this Gavin Degraw track for a movie called "Tristan & Isolde" last year, and the producer wanted tons of options, and we layered on a lot of instruments, so I had about 30 loops, dozens of different kicks and snares, and all kinds of little subtle grooves and instrument sound and he wanted it all rock solid so I had to do a lot of warping. Of course, in the end, only a small percentage of it was used, but I had to be able to make any of it work during production at any point in time. Also, one thing I do often is rather than use a traditional "loop" (kick/snr/hat beat/shaker,etc), I often warp completely random sounds that have no existing proper rhythm, and give a series of sounds a "groove" to make it feel like an inside pattern for another loop. So that requires a lot of warping too.

I usually only put them on 1 beats, for example, so if there's triplet timing within the bar or not, it makes no difference really.

I guess I just go a little deeper than you now and then...?

I like to experiment a lot.

anyway, sometimes i use a combination of viewing the arrangement grid and the clip view for warping. so you could watch the triplet grid above and warp the clip using the straight markers such that the triplets line up above... just an idea

Thanks. That's a great idea! I'll definitely try it. I think it emphasizes that in certain scenarios, even you could use the feature I'm talking about.

Spiralgroove · Post by **Spiralgroove** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:14 pm

you can drop your loop in arrange and set the arrange grid on 1/3s
then just be real careful warping the 1/4 markers and watch how its reflected in the arranger...

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:01 am

bry2k wrote: Thanks. That's a great idea! I'll definitely try it. I think it emphasizes that in certain scenarios, even you could use the feature I'm talking about.

sure, and like i said, i'm not discounting your wish

more than for any triplet or strange timing, i find myself watching the arrangement view while warping because i'm not using the grid at all and am just visually lining two tracks up by creating and moving warp markers on one of them. from that standpoint, where the warp markers themselves are is not particularly relevant, just how they effect the clip as a whole.

the possible exception being beats mode, because the action is centered around the transients setting, rather than spread out evenly (?)

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:08 am

longjohns wrote: the possible exception being beats mode, because the action is centered around the transients setting, rather than spread out evenly (?)

Exactly. That's a significant part of the problem...

-Bryan

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:23 am

you know what i'd actually like even more,

the ability to create warp markers _anywhere_ - not just on a defined grid

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:43 am

Well...you can create warp markers anywhere right now. But I guess what you mean is you want to be able to define any beat value for any warp marker. I agree, that would be very useful, although for the most part if you have up to 1/64 note triplet resolution, that would cover just about every useful scenario - at least for me.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:09 pm

bry2k wrote:Well...you can create warp markers anywhere right now. But I guess what you mean is you want to be able to define any beat value for any warp marker.

i can only see down to 1/16th notes on the warp grid. so i can put them on any 1/16th note, but certainly not _anywhere_

i guess you're right about them needing to be defined as some beat value, and you're also right that 64t resolution would do me just fine

i was starting to imagine two types of warp markers ---

the current style, which would lock onto certain beats

and a 2nd type which would not sit on a beat but just control the stretching, kind of like control points/nodes on a bezier curve in CAD

but i think i'm just confusing myself there, they would need to correspond to time... it's just that for this application i would not care necessarily what that time was.

here's what i would be after: the ability to lock a kick on beat 1, a snare on beat 2, but have ALL the warp between them happen in a tiny fraction of the space just before beat 2.

as it stands, the best i can do is lock the 1.1.3 marker and use the 1.1.4 marker to adjust - so i'm creating warp over an entire 1/8th note duration.

just wishing to get the warping confined to small spaces where not much is happening in the audio

I acknowledge the fact that this may be a dumb idea!!

bry2k · Post by **bry2k** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:35 pm

I get it. You want to control the rate at which time passes between warp markers, and a bezier curve type control would definitely accomplish that.

I personally can't think of how that would be useful in terms of 99% of musical scenarios, but...I agree there's always that 1% of the time when it would come in handy, and in terms of the UI, I don't think it would be difficult for Ableton to implement it as an option control. Just throw in a "show curves" button next to the clip, and you could drag the curves up/down/left/right. That would be pretty cool.

What I meant when I said "you can put warp markers anywhere" is just what I said. Right now, you can in fact put a warp marker anywhere. What you can't do is manually define that warp marker as representing any specific point in time.

For now, all I want is at least a compromise between the above "ideal flexibility" scenario and what we have now.

It would be very useful to have at least the option of up to 1/64 triplet note grid for warp markers.

It would also be even more useful to be able to double click a warp marker and be able to type in a manually defined time value for that warp marker to represent, ie, 1/2/360 (bar/beat/ticks - as with Pro Tools, which I use often), and the value should be limited only by the time value of the preceding and following warp markers.

Lastly, it would nice if Live would auto-detect transients in a clip, perhaps in conjunction with an adjustable threshold control for the clip, and automatically create warp markers for the clip - similar to the way Beat Detective works in Pro Tools. Then the user would be able to add or remove warp markers from that point to clean up any issues with the auto-detection, adjust warp marker time values for creative purposes, etc, but most of the initial tedious work that has to be done hundreds of time with every production would be done automatically. I'm really amazed that this functionality doesn't exist already. As I said before, I've been wishing for it since Live 2.0.

These features are what I need to make Live truly flexible enough to accommodate all of the creative scenarios that arise when I'm putting a track together.

Hopefully Ableton is listening.

-Bryan

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:53 pm

yes, 1/64t would work well enough for what i need too.

in any case, i have enjoyed the discussion!