is your midi recording OFF?

phased · Post by **phased** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:04 am

This applies to anyone recording without quantization from a connected midi device. I've created a test project that you can use to check your system as well:

http://download.yousendit.com/0A7E14D313F92A92

Not sure how many people can grab that, but I think it should be good for 7 days.

I'm using a padKontrol to trigger samples in Live, and they are playing back different after the midi is recorded. Since there's no groove templates, I figure I'd bang away and get the groove myself. But what I hear when I monitor myself recording is NOT what I get back!

I included instructions in the zip file, but I'll post them here:

Open up the project.

Make sure there is no quantization on record. Edit->Record Quantization->No Quantization

Leave the track routing alone, "Track 1: MIDI" is set to trigger a sample. The audio will then be received by "Track 2: Audio" for recording. Tracks are set to monitor inputs, and are BOTH armed for recording (midi and the resulting audio).

The included sample is contained in the first cell of Impulse, so when you play C3 on your midi device you should hear the included sample (C4 if you use a padKontrol).

Once you're succesfully triggering the sample, arm the global record button, hit play to begin recording.

Trigger the samples a bunch of times on your midi device, and hit stop to halt recording in the Arrangement view.

Change both tracks' input to "No Input".
Change "Track 1: MIDI" output to "Master".

Note that "Track 1: MIDI" is panned hard left, and "Track 2: Audio" is panned hard right...

Play the arrangement. Can you hear a difference?

File->Render to Disk. Open up the resulting waveform in your editor of choice, and see any timing differences.

My result - the rendered wav file - is also included in the zip file. Check it out if you'd like. You will see that most of the time the recorded midi's audio playback (left channel) was ~1ms early(!) compared to what I heard while recording (right channel). But every now and then it's an additional 1ms off. See the 4th sample from the end, it's almost 2ms early! So it's not even consistent.

With the hard panning, I could hear the difference in the hit that was 2ms early. With some of my other gear, hits were almost 4ms early! Entirely noticeable when you're trying to make tight groovy beats!

Try this out everybody... is there something wrong with Live, or my setup? Post your results, and the hardware you're using. In addition, do any settings effect your results? Such as:
- delay compensation
- audio error compensation
- midi keys on/off
- specifying a particular midi device/channel for input
etc, etc

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:27 am

theres supposed to be a section in the manual that walks you through delay compensation and how to set it up properly for your buffer size and all that. I'd say go through that and once you have it set up the way they say is proper then try your test again and see what the results are.

phased · Post by **phased** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:33 am

I've done all that. Read everything. Tweaked everything. What's weird is that audio performs perfectly, with plugins and everything. Exactly. What I hear recording & monitoring, and what I get after playback. But midi, no. I encourage others to experiment with me. Especially if you normally record midi without quantization.

nolus · Post by **nolus** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:26 am

this is just speculation, but my guess would be this:
Note on is a 3 byte message.
Live probably time stamps the midi message as soon as it sees the first byte, but it can't sound the note until it has seen the next 2 bytes plus any preparation time it may need.
when the track is played back the 2 byte delay is eliminated and Live can prepare for the event in advance.
So the midi track plays slightly ahead of the recorded audio.
</speculation>

phased · Post by **phased** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:14 pm

If that was the case, they would use delay compensation to make up for that. In other words, if that delay was 1ms... they would roll the audio 1ms early so that when you play a note, it would sound at the correct time. It appears that's exactly what's done with the audio. What's even more confusing is that the midi isn't even consistently off, it varies....

I put a ton of time into this... will anyone do the test? It doesn't take very long. Or does nobody record unquantized midi?

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:57 pm

i record unquantized midi, and i'll try your test when i get home from work.

i gotta tell you, i suspect the padKontol's usb interface. My microKontrol acts a little funny, and i generally plug it in via a midi caqble to the back of my MOTU828 (which clears up the problems) rather than use it as usb (which kind of defeats a good portion of the purpose, i know.).

so, uh, i'll try in a few hours.

.lm.

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:28 pm

I've been told that with midi monitoring set to off you get less errors. the problem we get when monitoring is that there is an audio buffer so by the time we hit the note it's already late due to the buffer, so live tries to correct that lateness and I suppose sometimes there is some errors in the calculations.

that and I'd say the fact that you're using usb may account for some of this.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:39 pm

well, there's nothing wrong with USB persay, i have some usb midi interfaces that work great. But i will say i have noticed weirdness with my microKontrol....

.lm.

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:42 pm

I'm under the impression that usb can cause all sorts of timing delays. I think it has something to do with the fact that supposebly it sends information in "packets" though I'm not even possitive what that is supposed to mean

phased · Post by **phased** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:51 pm

Interesting. That would suck if USB (or USB2) is the problem. My laptop doesn't have a serial port, so I guess that leaves firewire and cardbus. Anyways, I'll see what other interfaces I can dig up. But my Korg padKontrol=USB, M-Audio Axiom=USB, MOTU microlite=USB. Also what's odd is the Apogee MiniMe is USB, and the performance is solid.

Johnisfaster, that's interesting about the monitoring, but how can I record unquantized drums without hearing them? I hear what you're saying about the audio buffer, but when I'm recording & monitoring myself playing bass through a VST, it is dead-on accurrate. So I figure Live is capable of handling the audio part correctly.

Please let me know how the test goes, lm. And if anybody else wants to step up too

Thanks

phased · Post by **phased** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:32 am

So all my midi interfaces are USB

I decided to try out the MOTU since it's sole purpose is midi. What surprised me is how worse things got. The timing ended up being much more random, and sometimes off as much as 10ms! Maybe the midi in/out ports on the padKontrol suck, I don't know. But using the padKontrol with its built-in USB was much much better.

Anybody else want to test out their setup? Please?

I'm hoping it works for somebody, so maybe I can get similar gear. Maybe a non USB midi interface? Maybe a device supporting both hi-speed audio AND midi might do the trick, so audio & midi are on the same clock? Something like an RME fireface, a motu 8pre or ultralite, a presonus firepod or firestudio... Anybody got gear like that?

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:37 am

what buffers are you at?

i find if i go over 1024, the midi is just totally wrong

phased · Post by **phased** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:50 am

I have the apogee ASIO drivers set for:
44.1kHz 16-bit
"Highspeed" setting :
Input 3ms 175 samples
Output 4ms 216 samples

icedsushi · Post by **icedsushi** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:18 am

I notice some discrepancy between timing I hear when monitoring and clip playback. However it is a lot better since they fixed that monitor setting bug around 5.0.3. Live 5 before 5.0.3, it was really bad in monitor AUTO and monitor IN settings.

Downloaded, will see what I come up with.

ikke · Post by **ikke** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:46 am

phased wrote:I've done all that. Read everything. Tweaked everything. What's weird is that audio performs perfectly, with plugins and everything. Exactly. What I hear recording & monitoring, and what I get after playback. But midi, no. I encourage others to experiment with me. Especially if you normally record midi without quantization.

yeh midi behaves nasty in live. unstable shitty clock as well
and whats up with the mising sync features in version 6?? no more fps (framerate) option????????????????????????? what the feck?
sometimes i feel like live 6 is a downgrade from live5. probably because i dont use the new features and im missing the old ones. nasty nasty
but yeh midi stuff blows in live my man.. get something else for that. remember live was audio first. midi only entered in live4. you could get a hardware midi seq but then again.. it wont sync very well........ there is like a gab of 30ms

audio and fx plugins are rock solid though.. in tune and on time! even with vst!