[OT] - Interview with a former Jihadist

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:03 pm

it isn't the muslim faith per se, that is the problem. It is the politicalization of the religion that causes the problem.

And we should all agree that politicizing religion and turning into a mantra that includes terrorism as a way to achieve its objectives is a problem.

FWIW, I don't believe its fair to condemn a religion based on those who are extremists within.

BUT - the problem is that these people (the terrorists who use Islam as their basis for action) are the most public, most heard, most attention getting part of the religion at this point. So, in effect, the extremists are setting the agenda for all muslims in the world given that those who are not muslim or follow islam, hear no equally competing voices of non-violence, support of tolerance, and the active non-politicalization of the religion.

To be fair to Mr. Breqs, you all have missed the point that ideology is driving the attacks of terrorist and jihadist supporters at this point. Not past transgressions against them or their people or their religion.

I'm not sure why this is controversial since we are talking about extremist points of view concerning radicalized jihadists. OF COURSE, they are going to think that their ideology is better, more fair, more worth killing for, or dying for.

From a westerinized, liberalized POV we have a hard time understanding why someone, from our POV, would want to go backwards to something like Sharia law and eliminate the freedoms we've sacrificed for - but that isn't the right POV. They think of their ideology as moving FORWARD from ours.

We have to at least address the issue of "why" they think that way. If you don't do that, then it is quite possible you don't understand the nature of what we are fighting against.

Unless you think its okay to allow sharia law in liberalized western democracies. That is an entirely different conversation - and we should be analyzing you and not some interview posted by Breqs.

.02,

rob.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:12 pm

M breqs / Contra / Robtronik

the axis of reason ?

And at this point, this thread can only turn into another tired & trite re-hash of all the previous ones about the middle east...bar the fresh perspective of bigotry Contra can add to the mix, but hey...why bother waiting for him to post - we can just visit www.abrahamic-faith.com to get his point of view.

Out like a trout,
have fun.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:12 pm

Actually, i don't think that it is a fair assumption to say that all of our terror problems stem from extreme Muslim ideology.

Of course the spark comes from ideology, however, real moderate Muslim people are swayed towards sympathy with the extremists due to our actions. That is how the spark becomes a raging fire.

The majority of Muslims in this world are *not* extremists. That idea is laughable at best.

.lm.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:14 pm

robtronik wrote: OF COURSE, they are going to think that their ideology is better, more fair, more worth killing for, or dying for.

rob.

as you and your ilk think of your ideology.

.lm.

farwest1 · Post by **farwest1** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:27 pm

Got to side with the eminent Richard Dawkins on this one. It's not any one religion that's the problem, it's RELIGION IN GENERAL. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all mechanisms of tyranny, oppression, and violence.

To take an example close to home, all of Christianity is based around the idea of some guy tortured on a cross and left to rot. At its very core, it's about violence and torture. Every day, in their houses of worship, Christians look at this torture victim. Again and again, nails in the hands, crown of thorns, pain, suffering, death. And we wonder why Abu Ghraib happened. Those Abu Ghraib torturers had been learning how to do it from day one in their churches. If you're a Christian, you've been fed the torture and violence stories since the day you were born. You live and breathe, it's in you.

And don't give me the claptrap about Christianity being a religion of peace. Jesus was a man of peace, yes, but then his disciples corrupted and polluted his death and shoved it down the world's throat, asking us all to gain retribution for this one honest guy's death.

Go read Dawkins' "The God Delusion." And then become a secular humanist and resist all of these violent religions that are dragging the world to hell with them (a concept I don't believe in, by the way, but a good metaphor.....)

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:30 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
robtronik wrote: OF COURSE, they are going to think that their ideology is better, more fair, more worth killing for, or dying for.

rob.

as you and your ilk think of your ideology.

.lm.

well, the comparison holds in this way: Lots of people died during the revolutionary war 250 years ago. So, yeah, I'd say that's true if you believe representative democracy and a liberal approach to government is worth dying for.

But my gues is that you probably did mean that comparison and instead wanted to dig in a shallow manner.

Listen - what we are talking about here (or should be anyway) is the clear mandate of radicalized people who have latched on to a fundamentalist version of Islam and have made it their justification for thier attacks.

How in the world is this controversial when there are thousands of examples (speeches, attacks, killings, etc.) to refer to?

This isn't a hidden problem.

And what is with the lack dialog about this issue and the need to attack people who might disagree with you (or more accurately, trying to help you see the problem we face)?

.02,

rob.

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:40 pm

farwest1 wrote:Got to side with the eminent Richard Dawkins on this one. It's not any one religion that's the problem, it's RELIGION IN GENERAL. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all mechanisms of tyranny, oppression, and violence.

To take an example close to home, all of Christianity is based around the idea of some guy tortured on a cross and left to rot. At its very core, it's about violence and torture. Every day, in their houses of worship, Christians look at this torture victim. Again and again, nails in the hands, crown of thorns, pain, suffering, death. And we wonder why Abu Ghraib happened. Those Abu Ghraib torturers had been learning how to do it from day one in their churches. If you're a Christian, you've been fed the torture and violence stories since the day you were born. You live and breathe, it's in you.

And don't give me the claptrap about Christianity being a religion of peace. Jesus was a man of peace, yes, but then his disciples corrupted and polluted his death and shoved it down the world's throat, asking us all to gain retribution for this one honest guy's death.

Go read Dawkins' "The God Delusion." And then become a secular humanist and resist all of these violent religions that are dragging the world to hell with them (a concept I don't believe in, by the way, but a good metaphor.....)

yes, in general, this is a danger (religion). But the analysis seems to leave out the part where religion can help people live fuller, more realized, much happier lives as well. That's worth something. Not everyone can be an atheist.

Buddhism, in general, can be seen as a "religion" but hasn't been used as a vehicle for persecution of others en masse. It maps back to the potentials of the ideology again.

If that religion has in it a strain of mandated conversion and moral superiority that must be enforced, then the risk of abuse is ALWAYS present. But as intelligent, empathetic, and caring human beings, the hope is that we don't go down that path towards abuse, coercion, and segregation based on our personal spiritual preferences.

This is where we need to be sure that radicalized islamic terrorists are stopped. None of us agree with these tactics.

So why can't we agree that there is a fundamental problem with their ideology and recognize that as the source of the problem? This isn't controversial, it is a fact (as the evidence is so readily available and willingly supplied to us).

rob.

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:52 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:Actually, i don't think that it is a fair assumption to say that all of our terror problems stem from extreme Muslim ideology.

Of course the spark comes from ideology, however, real moderate Muslim people are swayed towards sympathy with the extremists due to our actions. That is how the spark becomes a raging fire.

The majority of Muslims in this world are *not* extremists. That idea is laughable at best.

.lm.

Of course not all of our terror problems come from that. But I would submit to you that the major issue of our time is radicalized islamic terrorist ideology - and other strains of terrorist ideology are rather marginalized at this point comparitively speaking.

I don't see much in the way of Greenpeace radicals blowing themselves up with innocent bystanders to save the whales, now, do you?

I don't think *anyone* is saying the majority of muslims are motivated to be terrorists. Of course that's laughable. What we are talking about is the specific problem of those within the muslim religion who have been politicized and converted to a radicalized version whereby western nations and their liberalized ideologies are the enemy.

An enemy worth killing. An enemy worth dying to eliminate. Add to the fact that this ideology needs no state sponosred mandate to spread, and we have a real problem. This problem is ideology.

It is a war of ideas and perspective. If we lose that, then we lose much of what the world has fought for over the last few hundred years... civil rights, enfranchisement, a reach towards tolerance and equality, etc. Take a look at life under the Taliban, or the wahabist versions of rule (Saudi), etc. and decide if that is the type of life we should allow to spread?

I'm not a relativist in this regard. I say it is a dangerous thing to let a religious mandate rule... we've fought those wars. Been there, done that. No need to revisit past failures because some radicalized jihadist feels that it deserves another shot - but this time because he has a *better* way. Uh, yeah right.

.02,

rob.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:02 pm

what i am saying to you is that a small portion of the population is nopt a threat to us until we engender them with the ammunition they need to gain popular sympathy.

the strength of radical islam is partially our problem in this regard. You choose to believe that we are 100% innocent of provoking this response. I think that that is just as dangerous and close mined a view as that of radical islam.

i am a mystic.

i believe that we are all of the same source.

i believe that all of the basic common people of the world share the same enemy.

I believe that none of the common people of this world ever truly want war.

unfortunately i also believe that they are easily duped into believing a lot of nonsense by a small group of greedy men who rule the world's nations (on all sides).

you see me as not wanting to have dialog with you. That is not the case, i just believe the dialog must be on an entirely different level. How can i begin to speak with someone who truly believe that they are 100% in the right?

.lm.

farwest1 · Post by **farwest1** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:03 pm

Robotronik's point about religions offering some solace to people is well taken. But even Sayyid Qutb, the philosopher of all of this terrorist violence, wrote a book called "In the Shade of the Quran," which is about how comfortable, caring, and peaceful Islam is. And then he says, "go kill anyone who's not a Muslim." My point is that people who can be comforted by religion can also be people who kill or do wrong n the name of it.

By the way, Buddhism isn't a religion per se. It's a moral code.....though the Buddha reached nirvana, he isn't considered a diety to be worshipped. He's more of a teacher. Buddhism doesn't believe in a creator or supreme being. Buddhism is closely aligned with Dawkin's naturalism or secular humanism. If you believe in physics, you can be a buddhist with no contradiction. But you can't be a chirstian, muslim or jew without MAJOR MAJOR contradictions and hypocrisies.

What I love most about the Ted Haggerty scandal (evangelist supreme who who has been seeing a gay prostitute and taking methamphetamines for years) is that it exposes the blatant hypocrisy at the root of monotheistic religions. All these people lead such pious public lives, but then have to sin in private and in secret. They're not honest people.[/quote]

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:09 pm

Buddhism is a system that fills all the holes Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Animism, etc., fill or have filled in other societies. I'd say that makes it a 'religion'.

And it's also got as bloody a history as any of the others. As does secular humanism (was Hitler a Christian in anything but name?).

PEOPLE are the problem, with their lack of compassion and insight.

-Paws (Buddhist, ish)

farwest1 · Post by **farwest1** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:09 pm

Liesuremuffin:

You say that the majority of muslims are not extremists and that it's a laughable idea. But the problem is that all the mechanisms are in place to ignite Islamic extremism. It's like pouring a bunch of fuel on the ground, lighting a match and setting it five feet away: the gasoline isn't burning now, but soon........

I think the US and western nations have done plenty to fuel Muslim anger. However, if the religion weren't so warlike and violent in the first place, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Violence is built into Islam. I love the irony of the Pope calling Islam violent, and then a bunch of Muslims kill Catholic nuns in retaliation, saying "how dare you call us violent!"

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:10 pm

farwest1 wrote:Robotronik's point about religions offering some solace to people is well taken. But even Sayyid Qutb, the philosopher of all of this terrorist violence, wrote a book called "In the Shade of the Quran," which is about how comfortable, caring, and peaceful Islam is. And then he says, "go kill anyone who's not a Muslim." My point is that people who can be comforted by religion can also be people who kill or do wrong n the name of it.

By the way, Buddhism isn't a religion per se. It's a moral code.....though the Buddha reached nirvana, he isn't considered a diety to be worshipped. He's more of a teacher. Buddhism doesn't believe in a creator or supreme being. Buddhism is closely aligned with Dawkin's naturalism or secular humanism. If you believe in physics, you can be a buddhist with no contradiction. But you can't be a chirstian, muslim or jew without MAJOR MAJOR contradictions and hypocrisies.

What I love most about the Ted Haggerty scandal (evangelist supreme who who has been seeing a gay prostitute and taking methamphetamines for years) is that it exposes the blatant hypocrisy at the root of monotheistic religions. All these people lead such pious public lives, but then have to sin in private and in secret. They're not honest people.

[/quote]

right, that is why I put quotes around the word "religion" when referring to buddhism because you are right. But for purposes of this discussion, Buddhism is a belief, and ideology, and is worth grouping together w/ other more formal religions to show how a belief can evolve and not be a danger to those who are non-believers.

rob.

FWIW, half my family (wife, her mom, etc. are from Thailand and are buddhist. I'm pretty familiar with it as we talk to monks and go to temples all the time - here in LA or over in Thailand when we go over).

azurescens · Post by **azurescens** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:13 pm

Islam?, the major issue of our times?, oh come on, one guy blows himself up and kills what?, 20 people?, some dudes hijack airplanes and kill a couple thousands?, that's an issue, but it's far from being the major issue of our times, we have americans invading countries, vetoing UN resolutions all over the place, going to injustified wars, acting agains the will of the whole planet, spending more money that anybody else is weapons that will eventually be used, real weapons you know?, nuclear warheads, biological weapons, and so on..american pretty much distroyed El Salvador and Nicaragua, with far worst violence that any musilms i have ever read about, the middle east has been under attack for centuries, most people are just trying to find a way out, their religion sucks, i agree with that, but then christianity sucks even more, to see bush claiming to have god on his side is a lot more terrifying that some arab dude with a homemade vest blowing himself up in the street.

the quoted article at the beginning of this thread made a claim that is truly weird "Stop asking what you have done wrong. Stop it! They're slaughtering you like sheep and you still look within. You criticize your history, your institutions, your churches. Why can't you realize that it has nothing to do with what you have done but with what they want."

In my opinion that's the worst thing to do, to ignore all the problems that israel with the help pf the US has brought to the middle east and blaim the whole thing on some book.

There has been polls when people are asked what do they fear the most, and not surprisingly the answer was, the US, that's the major issue of our times, a country so powerfull that can kill us all and then blaim us for it.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:15 pm

Contra wrote:if your true christian which pat robertson isnt you would talk in that manner....
if u read the shit i posted above it shows you 'fundamentalists" ARE true 7th century muslims.

dont be blind to the truth.

remember what i said before its too late.

Again bullshit. You're delving 1700 years in the past to support your claim that fundamentalist muslims are 'true' muslims. Talk to any fundamentalist christian, and you will see that they too know their holy scripture inside and out. They will quote bible verses that back up all the violent war like behavior you could ever need.
Asshole fundamentalists are asshole fundamentalists, the middle east has a large amount simply because the west has made them feel like they have no control over their politics, plus there's been a systematic uprising among the fundamentalists against western influence in their region. That has definitely led to the sheer amount of extremists we see today.
Personally I'm starting to think it's just plain vanity on the part of you people. The middle east couldn't possibly be a messed up place because we conquered and divided their region into little kingdoms held by assholes we liked, then years later discovered they had some super sweet crude oil, which started another round of western involvement in the political map of the region.
Iran is a direst result of our meddling, Afghanistan was Russia's fault, fundamentalist uprisings against puppet governments installed by the west. It goes on and on. Saudi Arabia is our bitch, we have total compliance from them, the debt the kingdom owes the states is huge, and that simple fact fuels fundamentalist terrorist cells.
This is too stupid though, sorry all you that believe that terrorism and muslim violence against the west is due to the muslim religion, but you're all really near sighted, you want to believe what makes YOU feel good, it's sad really.
You're gathering 'evidence' to back up your claim simply because you want your 'side' to smell like roses. What you're going to end up doing is to send us back a few hundred years in religious tolerance, and wreak as much violence in the name of your fundamentalist beliefs as the muslim extremists do in theirs.
You don't have to look at 'liberal' organizations for information on our direct involvement in middle eastern politics, the CIA has plenty of declassified information on their site.
Fundamentalist muslim uprisings have been effective means in the middle east for change, the Sha was booted from Iran, Russia left Afghanistan, it's no mystery that it's on the rise, and it simply does not point to the religion as the reason for the hatred of the west. The rise of fundamentalist muslim extremists is due to the simple fact that it has been shown to work as a way to rally the people against the west.
You would see the exact same thing if England had come back in the 1800's and conquered the US, then divided it into little state kingdoms, left, then started messing with the politics in the area to suit it's need for oil etc. I'm dammed sure that we would see the rise of fundamentalist christianity, etc. and honestly there would be muslims talking about how the christian religion was to blame for our lack of civility etc.
You, and the others have no excuse for being uninformed. The only thing I come back to is pure vanity.