God-Damn NI!

[BinaryB]

please read this

THIS THREAD shows the FUNDAMENTAL problem with N.I.

then this makes more sense

KORE UPDATES SOON THREAD

FCK YOU VERY MUCH

Yea, looked at your "problem bitch".... it looks like the "problem" of a lazy ass clown...

Either you have "Talent" or you Don't.... Stop bitching about Ni's Genius and accept the fry drop.... Your ramblings are embarrassing.

Its like a high school drop out bitching about "belts too tight" when straping in astronauts in the Spaceshuttle before liftoff.


Give it up and go to sleep...

I like to think of it this way.

Its like a FCK that thinks it's a FCK when its really a FCK that is a FCK...

... and it doesn't know it...

...yet.




...until it reads this.

THIS THREAD shows the FUNDAMENTAL problem with N.I.

then this makes more sense

KORE UPDATES SOON THREAD


FCK U Very Much

and Goodnight.

[Machinesworking]

Plus I'm running a mac, seems the people with the pace problems are running XP.
you're strange machinesworking, you're an NI apologist and a cycling74 critic....maybe you just like to argue ?

I just like to argue? You have to admit that's just a little bit of the pot calling the kettle balck isn't it?

Well bOunce, maybe it's because I've owned Cycling 74's Pluggo for about 5 years now, and while the whole software development environment thing is great, Reactor and Max/MSP are amazing programs, the truth is the layers of abstraction that occur with code to prevent Max/MSP from working outside a license, and the whole integration with Logic or Live etc. with Cycling 74 has always been buggy. PACE has a well known reputation for adding a layer of possible problems, it's not just the PC side.
I've used Pluggo plug ins that will consistently crash your mac every time, and these are the ones included with Pluggo. Before you interject that Pluggo is not Max/MSP, Pluggo is the runtime application that Max/MSP uses to run VST's of itself in Live.
As a whole I really love Cycling 74, but as you should know by know I also can't stand Kore, I don't like dongles, or PACE, and it made me sad to know a software company I liked the products of, that has never made the most stable products, decided to use PACE, which could easily lead to more instability. The exact same applies to NI and Kore's dongle properties. the difference being that NI haven't made all their products into dongle software, only Kore as of now. When NI use PACE and dongles for all their gear, I'll definitely join in on the NI bashing.
Honestly, it's been hard not to purchase Max/MSP anyway, I like the basic sound of MSP, and it was depressing when they adopted PACE to me.

[b0unce]

Plus I'm running a mac, seems the people with the pace problems are running XP.
you're strange machinesworking, you're an NI apologist and a cycling74 critic....maybe you just like to argue ?

I just like to argue? You have to admit that's just a little bit of the pot calling the kettle balck isn't it?

Well bOunce, maybe it's because I've owned Cycling 74's Pluggo for about 5 years now, and while the whole software development environment thing is great, Reactor and Max/MSP are amazing programs, the truth is the layers of abstraction that occur with code to prevent Max/MSP from working outside a license, and the whole integration with Logic or Live etc. with Cycling 74 has always been buggy. PACE has a well known reputation for adding a layer of possible problems, it's not just the PC side.
I've used Pluggo plug ins that will consistently crash your mac every time, and these are the ones included with Pluggo. Before you interject that Pluggo is not Max/MSP, Pluggo is the runtime application that Max/MSP uses to run VST's of itself in Live.
As a whole I really love Cycling 74, but as you should know by know I also can't stand Kore, I don't like dongles, or PACE, and it made me sad to know a software company I liked the products of, that has never made the most stable products, decided to use PACE, which could easily lead to more instability. The exact same applies to NI and Kore's dongle properties. the difference being that NI haven't made all their products into dongle software, only Kore as of now. When NI use PACE and dongles for all their gear, I'll definitely join in on the NI bashing.
Honestly, it's been hard not to purchase Max/MSP anyway, I like the basic sound of MSP, and it was depressing when they adopted PACE to me.

hoho - definatly some pot / kettle action there
that doesnt make the kettle any less black tho

I share your views on copy protection emphatically, however - I trust cycling74 emphatically too. and the quality of the code & support takes priority over the copy-protection stuff. So basically I'll suck it down, for maxmsp.
I'm going to do some more research into PACE...but so far you seem to be the only guy with a problem with it using a mac/osx (please share some links/resources on this topic if you've got any - I looked but only found a few XP horror stories)

as for the iLok, well...I hope it comes with the packaged version, I'd like to test it out. It doesnt drain cpu does it ? Again - fuck dongles, but for max - I'll deal with it. Even tho its only us paying customers who have to deal with this shit, and thats annoying...I will go through it for max.

Maybe you can opt out of iLok later, and use pace instead...


NI on the otherhand....shadey, I'm not a fan of their business model coupled with buggy software and thats before I even think about copy protection. I -hate- paying for unstable untested software, and having to write bug report after bug report . I'll gladly beta test & write up bug reports for something, but I dont want to pay pro-prices for the priviledge - and do it for months & months & months

At any rate, my college course is going to be focusing on reaktor down the line, like a 2 years down the line. I like to get a head start on these things...so sooner or later I'm going to get reaktor, plenty of time for them to get it nice and stable on macIntels before I drop the beans. Might even be a new version by the time I check it out.

I'm glad to hear what glitchrock has to say on the issue of stability, if its true, I'm glad to hear it. NI arent into me for any time/money yet, so I have no reason to hate them if they do things right by the time I pick up reaktor - but I sympathise with the poor bastids who've got the hot-end of the flaming shit stick thus far.

[smutek]

.....and four updates later the bugs still not fixed.......

And when it is fixed its a paid update that adds a bunch of new features that don't really work, a bunch of new bugs, and 9 out of 10 half the old bugs are still there.

[longjohns]

what is it about the internet that makes people say dumb shit like "pot calling the kettle black" and "straw man"

[b0unce]

what is it about the internet that makes people say dumb shit like "pot calling the kettle black" and "straw man"

or 'music has no rules'

thats probably the single most stupid thing I've ever read, in any medium, on any topic.

[b0unce]

I guess thats what using prefab loops does to your music theory

[smutek]

He who lives in straw houses shouldn't play with glass.

[BinaryB]

Ahhh... good morning EW.

not much left to say in defence of N.I. is there

They're waking up...

Why do you think I'm moderating four of their forums instead of the one I started with back in 2003 (the Absynth forum)? It's because I keep an online presence both on their forums and on other forums . At least then, there's somebody (myself) who can either make suggestions or get in contact with others who can.

Do you really want to go back to the days when nobody answered anything?
Yeah, I may not be an employee, but at least I keep a line of communication open.

ew

.....................................

No ...

They are waking up to N.I.'s BULLSHIT

FCK you very much.

[Machinesworking]

I share your views on copy protection emphatically, however - I trust cycling74 emphatically too. and the quality of the code & support takes priority over the copy-protection stuff. So basically I'll suck it down, for maxmsp.

I did for Logic, and for the same reasons, Logic 4.8 was solid as a rock, and so I decided to deal. Now, it seems insane to me that a live performance tool like Max/MSP, and tons of synths you would want to play live have dongles. On the other hand, iLock isn't apparently that bad as far as stability, it's mainly PCAE that worries me, and can possibly conflict with other software on your system.

I'm going to do some more research into PACE...but so far you seem to be the only guy with a problem with it using a mac/osx (please share some links/resources on this topic if you've got any - I looked but only found a few XP horror stories)

http://archive.digidesign.com/download/ ... anther.cfm
Honestly though, most of the stories I remember were in OS 9, (before your mac time probably), and it is actually kind of heartening to note that you seem to be right about this, in that there are a few issues with conflicts like the one above, but in general PACE seems to have stabilized. Personally, the whole method bothers me on a fundamental level though, PACE digs deep into your system, (hence the windows problems being worse), and can conflict with other copy protection methods, it has in the past anyway.

as for the iLok, well...I hope it comes with the packaged version, I'd like to test it out. It doesnt drain cpu does it ? Again - fuck dongles, but for max - I'll deal with it. Even tho its only us paying customers who have to deal with this shit, and thats annoying...I will go through it for max

Maybe you can opt out of iLok later, and use pace instead....

I think of the two, iLock is the better choice, but one problem to me with iLock is that some companies (Waves for instance) basically tell you you're SOL if the thing is stolen or lost, not sure about damaged, but they recommend you get insurance for it.

NI on the otherhand....shadey, I'm not a fan of their business model coupled with buggy software and thats before I even think about copy protection. I -hate- paying for unstable untested software, and having to write bug report after bug report . I'll gladly beta test & write up bug reports for something, but I dont want to pay pro-prices for the priviledge - and do it for months & months & months

PACE was unstable for years. Basically the only unstable App in Komplete for me is Intakt, and not surprisingly they discontinued it, Konatct does everything Intact can do, and is stable for me. I didn't buy komplete until I heard that Reactor 4.xx was stable on macs, and 5 came out stable, in fact the only instability I notice with NI plug ins is the exact same GUI drawing issues I notics with OSX and all my DAWs. Basically any open plugin GUI in a DAW in OSX while the sequencer is running will occasionally randomly crash the DAW. Rare, but I have to think it's OSX more than the DAW or plug in, it's far too across the board.

At any rate, my college course is going to be focusing on reaktor down the line, like a 2 years down the line. I like to get a head start on these things...so sooner or later I'm going to get reaktor, plenty of time for them to get it nice and stable on macIntels before I drop the beans. Might even be a new version by the time I check it out.

Reactor and Max/MSP and you really don't need anything else. Autechre are big time Max/MSP fans for instance. Reactor is stable on OSX now. From what I've heard pretty much anything bellow the last version of 4 was a meass though. Reactor is amazing, I think that and Absynth are the two plugs that simply can't be replaced that NI put out. The rest probably can, I just got a really good deal on Komplete a few years back here, so.....

I'm glad to hear what glitchrock has to say on the issue of stability, if its true, I'm glad to hear it. NI arent into me for any time/money yet, so I have no reason to hate them if they do things right by the time I pick up reaktor - but I sympathise with the poor bastids who've got the hot-end of the flaming shit stick thus far.

I do as well, but let's be honest here, even Live 5 wasn't that bug free, Logic 7, put out by all mighty Apple, supposedly the bastion of "it just works!" grooviness, crashed my system more than anything else when it came out.
Shit, you can't trust Apple to release a bug free DAW that they recently killed the PC version of? That was fucking nuts!
Thing is I don't feel, and no amount of B-boy honkies on the internet etc. will make me feel like I'm defending "NI", it's more asking for people to be realistic about this whole thing. Sure Ableton Live is stable, but Ableton make one program, with three supported plug in types, not a whole slew of plug ins and five plug in varieties. (VST mac/PC AU for Live. VST and RTAS mac/PC, AU mac for NI.

I like using macs, but let's face a simple fact here, Apple have made it hard to support macs as a developer, period. Logic competes with NI and Ableton, plus pretty much every plug in developer out there. Apple then ask developers to code for OSX, VST to OSX is a PITA, then they introduce a new plug in standard, that's not adopted by Steinberg, so a significant share of the mac market requires VST anyway. Then Apple introduce Intel macs, you're required to recode all your software for the third time.
You start out with OS9 VST, code that for OSX, then get caught in the debacle that was AU in it's early years, you're solid you think, then Intel, so another recode. This is all for maybe the same plug in, and if you upgrade it, and don't write a version for the outdated version, people rant about you for hours on the internet.

Kore sucks, I'm glad I didn't buy it, but it's hard to have sympathy for people who are early adopters. I suppose if they're 20 years old and haven't been using audio software for long, or haven't used plug ins much etc. but otherwise I never adopt a program as soon as it comes out, with the exception of GURU, but FXpansion are really active on the internet, and hold themselves accountable to a degree that you only see in Urs Heckman maybe.

[BinaryB]

Kore sucks, I'm glad I didn't buy it, but it's hard to have sympathy for people who are early adopters. I suppose if they're 20 years old and haven't been using audio software for long, or haven't used plug ins much etc.

So your FUCKED UP LOGIC is that we should be aware of how FUCKED N.I. are ?

FUCK SYMPATHY.

Its simple respect for THE FACTS.

sympathy is what N.I. are trying to get.

[BinaryB]

But apart from this little SYNDROME that is going around...

Its good to see some good ideas from Machinesworking.

[kineticUk]

Yeah some decent points, I don't have the OSX problems mentioned with all software though...funny that, its only NI's stuff I get really f'd off about. Bugger.
No not the sound of reaktor (which has massive bugs in the sequencers which have not been fixed in numerous updates even though moderators like sowari have been onto NI about them. They don't work when its runnin' inside a host...come on please).
No not absynth again I've got nothing but respect for the creator of the program and it sounds fine. NI (we are the knights that say NI) is my problem.
Its this attitude towards fixing by charging or fixing if you wait 2 years for the next version to come out and pay the scum (which no doubt will need another 2 years for new feature fixing). Fix by maintanence update, fuc* that shit, throw them off with some extra features (They don't have to work properly anyway cause it sounds good). Their support and attitude causes me to get irritated. I wanna be happy not sad.
Whatever the f-ever...can't be f'd with all that, and like I've said "problems"...I've got better things to do than waste my time sending emails (which would have a better chance of reachin NI for a response, if I hand wrote them, corked them in glass bottles and threw them off my local pier)...shi*. I could be talkin shi* on here in the general forum, I have not got the time or patience any more for the knights that say NI. No I'm not gonna bother, everyone else can do what they like. Glad that it works for others and glad I've got other companies to buy my software from.
Thank you and goodnight.

[Machinesworking]

Kore sucks, I'm glad I didn't buy it, but it's hard to have sympathy for people who are early adopters. I suppose if they're 20 years old and haven't been using audio software for long, or haven't used plug ins much etc.

So your FUCKED UP LOGIC is that we should be aware of how FUCKED N.I. are ?

FUCK SYMPATHY.

Its simple respect for THE FACTS.

sympathy is what N.I. are trying to get.

Not sympathy really, I just own VERY little software that hasn't gone through a fucked up phase. The only dead stable app I own is Reason, and to me it's incomplete on many levels. If reason has a reactor like plug in, and audio capabilities....
Apple even do it. and you get ZERO sympathy on the Apple forums. They deleted a thread I was slamming Logic on, and I never got half as heated as you do about Kore!

Ableton are pretty cool IMO, Urs Heckman (Uh-He = Zebra nd Filterscape etc.), FXPansion, and Ohm Force are cool, but that's about it. The rest are like Apple and NI, they barley acknowledge bugs, release things too early so some people's systems are left hanging, and are slow to update the software when a revision to the AU spec or Intel chips, 64 bit etc. comes out.

I sympathize that Kore is a POS, sorry if it seems like I don't, but if you hang in there, it will work. Either that or sell it, but you know the day you sell it they will release a bug fix! I'm sure, NI have to be sick of this, and it's got to hurt the bottom line. Only reason I bought Komplete Care was to get UB versions of my plug ins, and it's not really you that bothered me about the NI bashing, it's the people that bought $2000 machines, and are pissed at NI for making them pay for updates, that a TON of other companies are also making them pay for.... in my case including Apple themselves.

[b0unce]

I think of the two, iLock is the better choice, but one problem to me with iLock is that some companies (Waves for instance) basically tell you you're SOL if the thing is stolen or lost, not sure about damaged, but they recommend you get insurance for it.

I think iLok looks pretty useful...its $39.95 for the usb key and whatever software uses this copy-protection scheme has its license saved on the same key - I was thinking I'd have to have an individual dongle per program, and $30 a year for their 'zero downtime' coverage scheme. Tho for that to be useful, you need to have a spare iLok key. So if your ilok is broken,stolen,lost you can get a temporary license immediatly to put on your spare iLok, while they process your claim. The only describe what happens if its broken, in which case you send them the gammy iLok and once its verified they send you a new permanent license to put on your spare iLok.

they dont go into details about how it works if its lost or stolen, but they do say they cover those situations, so....

You're also covered without the 'zero downtime' scheme, but you dont get a temporary license and 'zero downtime' subscribers get priority for replacements - other folks can expect a wait of two weeks to get processed.

Again, they say lost & stolen is covered but they dont give details of the process, just if your iLok is bust.



Regarding PACE, I think you mentioned it may tamper with the source code ? earlier in this thread I think, anyways apparently thats not the case any more - at least not with the mac versions - the source code of the program remains untampered by pace. Which is nice.

I checked out the link you provided regarding PACE issues, and well....thats a pro-tools specific problem, so....


anyways, heres some links regarding maxmsp and pace/ilok

http://www.cycling74.com/twiki/bin/view/FAQs/IlokAuth
http://www.cycling74.com/twiki/bin/view ... izationFAQ

http://www.paceap.com/

http://www.ilok.com




Say, does anyone know how many authorisations cycling74 allow for maxmsp ?
with the iLok you can only run one max at a time, which has its advantages...
but if cycling74 allow two or more authorisations via the software protection, then theoretically I could run max on my mac and maybe a second PC machine.

PACE say they generate their auth code via your hard-drive, so I wonder if you auth your macintel (once) would max work on XP if you installed it on the same machine - under the same single authorisation ?


sorry for jacking this thread, disgruntled NI peeps