Desperately seeking help to solve my weird Live CPU problem

mecha303 · Post by **mecha303** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:17 am

I'm playing around with the Live demo but never managed to get it to work. I've bought a brand new computer for Live but can't even get the demo to work.. I'm starting to become really annoyed with this and I'm almost ready to forget Live and sell my laptop, even though I really like Live.

If someone can help, you'll receive my eternal undying gratitude, since I've been struggling with this for a few months now, and I'm really tired of this.. Live works fine on my Dell desktop computer, but I want to run it on a laptop. =)

Here goes:

I've tried live 3.0.2 and 3.0.3 and neither work. I've even tried re-installing windows and only install live to see if there was some kind of conflict, but it seems it's a live problem, not a windows/laptop problem. Other audio apps run smoothly, and live is the only program that I've had problems with.

My Laptop is a compaq 2550CA presario 2.4ghz running windows xp. On my Dell 2.8ghz desktop, live seems to work but I haven't fiddled with it a lot since I don't want to run it on a bulky desktop.

When I open up live and the demo session, it displays that I'm using about 5% of my CPU. But, it's really sluggish and I hear crakling noises. I've tried two different sound cards (onboard and USB) with no success. I thought live wasn't the problem and didn't think that CPU usage could be the cause, but when I opened up the task manager to see my cpu usage, I noticed that Live was using 70% of my CPU, compared to live saying that I used 5% of the cpu.

Right now, I have live opened and stopped. Live says it's using 3% of my CPU, but the task manager says that Live's process is using up about 45% (!) of my cpu. As you can imagine, when I play the demo live says its using up 19% while the task manager says its using 95-100% of the CPU! If I insert two reverbs, crackling occurs so I know that's really using up 100% of the CPU (also, the heat coming out of my laptop tells me the same thing).

I'm running a fresh clean install of windows XP without any other software installed but Live, and nothing is plugged in my laptop except for my usb mouse.

I've tried everything in my knowledge to try and fix this, and even contacted compaq to see if there was any solution, but everything I've tried so far resulted in that very same thing. (And yes, I'm also writing to Ableton's support =)

I've spent countless hours trying to run that thing, and I can't help but feel sad when I look at that brand new laptop I've bought to make music, but can't use at all due to this problem. If I can't find a solution for this I'll have to sell it and just forget live because there simply isn't anything else available (that I know of) that can compare to live.

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions to solve this issue, or if you ran into the same problem, I'd reeeeeeeealy like to hear it.

Thanks. =)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:38 pm

First of all, onboard pc laptop soundcards are for shit. You want to use and ASIO soundcard, preferably PCMCIA or firwire, usb if necessary. What was the "other" (non-internal) soundcard you tried? Was it ASIO, were the drivers up to date? Did you try adjusting the soundcards latency in Live's preferences menu? Did you try changing the bit depth and sampling rate? For me, Live 3.0.2 has been excellent, whereas I've heard about over-active hard drives on 3.0.3. Live 2.0.3 is also solid as a rock. With the right soundcard, Live should work great on that machine. Let us know what external usb soundcard you used, and what the settings were for it. Also, take a look at www.musicxp.net and www.blackviper.com for lots of great info on trimming some xp fat for a solid audio system. Maybe you have some settings for xp that aren't helping.

Ryan

serotoninsteve · Post by **serotoninsteve** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:06 pm

I checked out the specs of your laptop and noticed that it´s using shared video graphics, that´s why the taskmanager say´s that the cpu is higher than Live does (Live shows up the cpu ressources of itself and does not consider the resources used for graphics).
If you only have 256 Mbram and 64 are already used by the shared video you only have 192 Mb left for your XP and Live, but XP needs already 256 for running properly!
I don´t want to disapoint you, but shared video cards are not suitable for running audio apps at all!
Search this forum, there are many threads about what to buy!
You could try out to install more ram and hope, but better spend your money for an other machine.
Greetings!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:16 pm

serotoninsteve is a smart and helpful cookie. Me thinks he hit the nail on the head big time, and sadly I'd have to agree-shared video card is bad, and more RAM may or may not help much. Hopefully you are still in your return window on the compaq. Its no help now, but for buying a pc laptop, getting a lot of advice up front and avoiding pitfalls is important, as is getting all your system at once (computer, soundcard, software) as much as it may hurt your wallet, so that you can test stuff and make sure it works before you're stuck with it. Sorry.

Ryan

mecha303 · Post by **mecha303** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:41 pm

Ryan:

I originally thought that my sound card could be the problem.. I have an
Edirol UA-20 with ASIO drivers, and since I don't trust USB that much, I
unplugged everything and tried the onboard sound card, with the exact same results. I also tried the No Audio configuration, in which Live says it's
using 0% of the CPU with the task manager saying it's using up 20% of the
CPU. I've also tried 3.0.2 when I read your post, but with the same problems. As for the sound card, I have an Edirol UA-20 USB with the default settings and the latest ASIO driver, but since I can see the problem without it being plugged in, I guess it's not related. Btw thanks for the XP tuning tips, I'll be sure to check em out. I'm kind of familiar with XP and I've trimmed down a lot of stuff already, and its currently running the bare minimum to get Live running, but I'm reading the sites and checking if I have everything set up for optimal use, if it solves anything I'll post a followup here. =)

Serotoninsteve: Like Ryan said, I think you nailed it big time. I remember seeing a problem like this one a few years ago, and this could be it. I have to say I bought the laptop in a hurry (my old one got stolen), and I don't think I made the right choice and I totally agree with you on this one. Sadly, the stupid Future Shop sales guy assured me that the video card was the same radeon card as in my Dell system, but after a month I noticed that it used shared video and was really shitty. Shame on me for buying a laptop when I didn't even have the time to fully test it, but I needed it for work and couldn't afford to wait. I don't think video ram is the problem, since my current config with only live running doesn't use swap or anything and has enough memory to work, but shared video isn't a good thing for performance and since I see that live updates the display in a sluggish way, I think that the video card has problems keeping up with all the screen updates in live, and I've known ATI for having the worst video drivers in the world that can really render your computer useless.

Nevertheless, it gives me some ideas and I have a prime suspect: the video card. If this turns out to be the problem, I'll definitely stalk future shop or compaq until give me a solution for this (refund, replacement or whatever).

I have a few ideas in mind, mainly updating the video drivers and lowering allocated video memory (running the laptop in 800x600 16bits frees up system memory used for video). I also think that the bit depth could be a problem, since I've seen apps using more resources when they are run on a computer with a higher or lower bit depth than they were designed for.

Oh, I've just had an idea and tried it and this could prove that Video IS the problem: when I minimize live, it runs smoothly. Wow, this almost confirms the source of the problem! It uses up the resources of the computer the way it should, without any audio problems!

I'll try to check out if there are things I can do to solve this video performance issue.. If you have any threads or sites to point me to, I'd appreciate it.. If nothing works, I'll call up compaq and have them think up of something. Anyway, the sales guy at Future Shop misled me in my purchase (I have to admit I was pretty dumb in believing that guy anyway), and they have policies for this kind of thing.

And by the way, you guys have already earned my eternal undying gratitude =) I can't thank you enough! By the way, serotonin steve, where are you located? I don't have a lot of cash but if it turns out that your guess was correct, I could send you a little gift. =)

serotoninsteve · Post by **serotoninsteve** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:15 pm

Thanx, money is always welcome, but you better spend it on your next machine!
What you could try out:
Normaly shared graphics use up to (configurable, in your case 64Mbram), but try to go down to perhaps 16Mb if that is possible, it´s enough for a 2D application like Live and get some ram free, perhaps it runs better then?
Greetings!

P S: I live at the other side of the earth, in Luxemburg!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:34 pm

I have no idea what this means, but Live's graphics are vector based, wheras Fruity Loops and others are bitmap based. I wonder if the bitmap based apps hurt you less than vector based apps? I know, its off topic and silly, but I'm curious as to the differences. I heard about it when someone somewhere said they preferec looking at vector based apps (like Live) all day as opposed to bitmap apps (FL). Okay, I'll shut up now. My Nvidia Gforce 64 MB graphics card in my toshiba satelite has been trouble free, if that helps at all. One other thing is that I know I've read somewhere that sometimes turning down the resolution and bit depth of your graphics can actually hurt performance---maybe try a few different settings if you haven't already.

Ryan

Ryan

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:50 pm

Yes, it does! But the difference isn't really that much, and the demo still coughs up 50-60% of my CPU while live says its 6%..

I think we've found the problem, and the tests I've done confirm this (800x600 16bits runs way more smoothly than 1400x1200 32bits, as an example), but no config I've tried could come up with a performance similar to my 2.8ghz PC.

One thing I'd love to know is how much CPU live uses up when running the demosession (3.0.3 demosession, in fact). Like, how much CPU live says its using while how much CPU the task manager says Live is using. If you could take a few minutes of your time to check this out, I'd really appreciate it..

I don't have any other computer to compare it with, and I'd love to compare before calling up Future Shop to obtain a replacement laptop (the sales guy said it was a dedicated video card with 64mb which is completely untrue, and I can file complaints with the Consumer Protection Bureau to make them cough up a solution).

Thanks again and again =)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:35 pm

just tested the 3.0.2 Live demoarrangement and Demosession on my toshiba satelite xp pc P4 2.4, 1 gig RAM, RME multiface soundcard. Live's cpu meter says 3% when either set is open but not playing, and goes to the 10-11% range when playing, 12% max. The task manager is all over the place, but generally when not playing it is in the 3-9% range on the demoarranger, and anywhere from 3-30% on the session, but roughly 8% average. When playing, its roughly 15% average for arranger, 30% or so for session. Hope you get it straightened out.

Ryan

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:18 pm

Thanks, this confirms my tests! I wish there was a way to fix this problem without having to get another laptop... I'm going to call up compaq today and have them come up with a solution if there's one.. If there isn't, I'll try future shop for a replacement, and as a last resort I can find someone who has a laptop with specs slightly below mine but with a dedicated video card and trade.

Thanks again for all your help.. I'll post an update when I get everything sorted out =)

Ableton should definitely put this in their FAQ, because I did read it before buying my laptop and it said that "any laptop will do". I thought 3000 bucks on laptop gear would be alright, but now I know better. =)

spiderprod · Post by **spiderprod** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:54 pm

this problem is a typical example of driver conflict
to sort out your problem you need to:
disable your onboard soundcard,
set up the in/out of the window media asio driver,
then you select your sound card not to run with asio,
last you select window media full duplex asio driver in the preference tab of live 3.
it might not be the best set up but at least it will work without any glitch.

serotoninsteve · Post by **serotoninsteve** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:23 pm

Hello Spiderprod, it could be driver conflict too, but how do you explain this:

mecha303 wrote:Ryan:
Oh, I've just had an idea and tried it and this could prove that Video IS the problem: when I minimize live, it runs smoothly. Wow, this almost confirms the source of the problem! It uses up the resources of the computer the way it should, without any audio problems!

Greetings!

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:18 am

Yes shared memory is a memory bandwidth hog... and while lowering your resolution may help you to some degree, you might want to check a few other things as well.

Seeings as plenty of other good suggestions have been made, I'll try and cover a few that I haven't seen.

See if you can adjust your memory timings on your notebook to impact performance.

Windows XP defaults to only using 256k of cache, see if your processor has a larger cache, possibly increasing the size will help.

Make sure you are running the latest drivers.

Check if you can change the shared memory mode... maybe you can switch it into a dma or other configuration that might help reduce redundant calls.

See if you can figure out a way to lower the graphics 'priority' over other system interrupts (ie audio).

However, as it does sound like it runs flawlessly minimized, maybe you should be looking into investing into a good controller, and just freestyling all over lives ass without seeing what you are doing. I'm sure it could be done.

One last... and I doubt this would matter, but look up www.asio4all.com the driver *might* work miracles, but given your problems it'll probably do nothing.

Desperately seeking help to solve my weird Live CPU problem

Desperately seeking help to solve my weird Live CPU problem

sound card settings

Another suggestion...