Arrange View Tools (Cubase Style) and F***in Mouse wheel

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:07 am

Just to clarify on the zooming issue. I set up the magnifying glass in Logic to the right click button on the mouse. Zooming anywhere in the arrangement is simply a matter of clicking and dragging. That kills Live's method on so many levels it's not even funny. The best ideas from other applications should be stolen with absolute malice. SX stole Logic's brilliant click drag looping method, and this should IMO be the only reason to go to the top of the page for a function.
It's not a matter of making live into other applications, it's a matter of taking the best from other applications, if it is a more elegant method.
Sorry, just a bit passionate about this. I work in multiple DAWs because they all suck on some level, and in many ways Live is closest to being the be all and end all, but mousing all around the screen to perform functions that you simply shouldn't have to for is a major bummer for me about Live.

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:24 pm

Machinesworking wrote:It's not a matter of making live into other applications, it's a matter of taking the best from other applications, if it is a more elegant method.

Good Statement there, simple, to the point...and True. I hope you're reading ableton.
This is exactly what I'm talkin about, its not a case of forcing Live to join the dark side, but you don't have to reinvent every single wheel for the sake of being different.
Personally I would love the Cubase, Logic, etc tools and they would make life in the arrangement way better. Ctrl E this...whatever (Thats not doing it for me personally)
Live's arrangement view is the one part of the program which I think suffers...because its missing these features (The features that we all know work, yeah we've used them before thats why).

Also OT, Machinesworking I never knew SX had stolen Logics click drag looping method. I always thought it was Logic that stole from Cubase. I guess its a game of give and take. Just goes to show, you learn something new everyday...its good to talk...and steal from one another

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:07 pm

kineticUk wrote:Also OT, Machinesworking I never knew SX had stolen Logics click drag looping method. I always thought it was Logic that stole from Cubase.

The cycle bar in Logic was one of the features that swayed me over Cubase 5 when I was jumping ship from DP. I agree about the arrange page in Live, it's not up to par with SX or Logic, the thing that keeps Live in the forefront for me is the Session view, and ability to 'play' the arrangement. The implementation of tools for arranging are simply not at the level of the other DAWs. Another point, you can keep the dammed features it has, and add features for "advanced" users, who want workflow over "ease of use."

3rdordertrauma · Post by **3rdordertrauma** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:52 am

dr.wackler wrote:
kineticUk wrote: just use tools so that working inside arrangement is quicker and easier. These tools would take up absolutely no space. Just make life easier and quicker.
If you know where to click and what shortcuts to use, editing in Live is so much quicker and easier than constantly switching tools. Its just that people who 'grew up' with mouse tools are not used to use both hands for operation. Live's operation is based on one 'multi-tool': The selection. And they have implemented that in a genius way, that other DAWs even copied afterwards. No scissors or glue tool or pointers needed, it can all be done by selecting what you want to operate on. Simple, efficient, quick.
I didn't mean that tools would clutter the GUI, but they would clutter this basic idea of combining functions under one hood for simplicity and efficiency at the same time. After working with tool based DAWs for years, when I started to work with Live I found it's way of dealing with selections to make multiple tools redundant nothing but refreshing and astounding. I'd like them to stick with that idea and develop further in that direction.

I couldn't agree more!

How easy and efficient is it to select a region or a point you'd like to cut and hit apple+E to cut or apple+J to consolidate? Never needing to change tools and all that crap. I see this as a huge work flow enhancement not lack of features. I pray Ableton never adopts some outdated lame ass technology like a tool bar full of useless junk. This would only be a giant step backwards! IMO The phrase "as useless as tits on a football" comes to mind. My feelings are if you want to conform to a mold forged by an application such as Cubase of all things... then maybe Ableton Live is not for you.

3rdordertrauma · Post by **3rdordertrauma** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:07 pm

photonicrecords wrote:Scrollwheel zooming would be great, but it would also be nice to do the click and drag zooming without having to navigate the mouse to the ruler (via a hotkey). For instance, if you hold down a modifier key (like ctrl or option or some combo) the cursor would change into the zoom tool - anywhere in arrange view...

I like scrollwheel zooming in Logic and the like, but the click and drag zooming is much faster at getting all the way down to the sample level. The thing that's slow is having to navigate the cursor over the ruler every five seconds.

BTW, they already have something similar to this with the grab tool (cmd+shift changes the cursor into the grabber). They should add a key combo for the zoomer; I would use it all the time.

A key combo for the scrubber would be awesome too...

I'm with this! That is the best idea I've heard yet... Best of both worlds. Because I have to say I very much like the click and drag zoom. (Also)

But I would trade mouse wheel zoom for mouse wheel parameter support any day.

3rdordertrauma · Post by **3rdordertrauma** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:13 pm

quandry wrote: yeah, maybe for cut, copy, paste. but for tedious multitrack editing and automating in arrangerview, the current zooming methods implemented in Live pale in comparison with zooming in and out with the scroll wheel, plain and simple. Trust me, I've done tons of this type of editing in Live, and tons of it in Sony Vegas (which supports scroll wheel zoooming), and scroll wheel zooming kicks Live's arrangerview zooming in the ass, saving hours upon hours of time in big projects.

I'm sorry quandry but thats a joke... saves hours upon hours??? Maybe seconds upon seconds... once you adopt this way of zooming its actually quite efficient. Only thing I can see making it more efficient is photonicrecords suggestion of a hot key to bring up the click and zoom capability so moving the mouse to ruler is not necessary anymore.

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:50 pm

3rdordertrauma wrote:How easy and efficient is it to select a region or a point you'd like to cut and hit apple+E to cut or apple+J to consolidate? Never needing to change tools and all that crap.

Not nearly as easy as ... Ok I'm gonna cut some audio up (Scissors should do the job...select) ... Now Click. Click. Click
Arthritis for the rest of you.

3rdordertrauma wrote:My feelings are if you want to conform to a mold forged by an application such as Cubase of all things... then maybe Ableton Live is not for you.

Firstly its got nothing to do with conforming (I could care a less about what everyone else is doing). Read a couple of posts above you re "Re-Inventing Wheels". Secondly you should never assume...Live is for me and I'll continue to use what I want. I don't have to like the Apple-E method, and I don't. Scissors kill it. (Plus I've done my fair share of apple e's and I don't touch them anymore)
This is a feature request for Tools (Arrangement a la Logic, Cubase) and Mouse Wheel Support inside Live (The program I choose to use).

3rdordertrauma wrote:But I would trade mouse wheel zoom for mouse wheel parameter support any day.

Thats what this topic is about "Mouse Wheel Support" not "Mouse Wheel Zoom", the lot...so is that one we can agree on then ? I hope so.
Thanks for the constructive criticism's and have a good one.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:07 pm

What if these functions were added to a custom MIDI map?

Assign a button to scissors or whatever...
No need to clutter the interface and you got what you want.

Eventually we're going to run out of key commands. I'd rather have a labeled button assigned to a function.

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:13 pm

Im not exactly sure how I did it now but I remember thinking it was easy at the time. I bought one of these Griffin knobs
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate/
PowerMate is the coolest volume knob your computer has ever seen - but it’s so much more.

You can use it to edit home movies or scroll through long documents or create your next audio masterpiece. How can PowerMate be this cool? Because it’s an assignable controller that you can program to do anything you want, in any application. Customize it to your needs and go wild!

THats the add that sold me, Im mean how could I pass it up

I assigned magnify to the right and demagnify to the left and maybe cut on the button. My left hand controlled all this. This was years ago maybe live 2 or something. Did it work, yaa it worked but it was kinda buggy and not as functional as I hoped. You have to tune the speed of the clicks with the right and left turns of the knob. So sometimes I would expand the screen way too much and if I had a heavy session it sucked ass because the cpu couldnt keep up with the comands properly. After a few days I said fuggit, it was just easier to use the top of the screen. I think the command at the time was apple+] for magnify and apple+[ for demag. I might try this again, I has to work better now, these knobs are popular.

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:41 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Assign a button to scissors or whatever...
No need to clutter the interface and you got what you want.

Yeah I'm easy with the method ableton choose to use (One that suits all of us users), whatevers clever. I would just love to have access to tools for Operations in Arrangement. They can be hidden away, customized by the user, added to a custom midi map (Idea hoffman2k), hidden to the haterz, etc. I would not want clutter either (I don't think Tools have to = Clutter). I mean c'mon...the "use Cubase" thing isn't the solution. I just want to use tools in Live (If you don't need/like them, then you wouldn't be forced to use them).
It would not be hurting anyone if they added these...seriously.

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:52 pm

Everyone talks about how they wish live had this feature from SX and or this feature from Logic. HOw live should just ripp these implementations off from these other wares. Why not just request that LOgic or Cubase just completely ripp off lives best features?! Apple and Yamaha have way more money then Ableton. Uhmm maybe because they dont want to be sued

I just threw that in for the bump.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:39 pm

John Daminato wrote:Why not just request that LOgic or Cubase just completely ripp off lives best features?! Apple and Yamaha have way more money then Ableton. Uhmm maybe because they dont want to be sued

Please, you seen the way SX handles warping audio now? Looks awfully familar. DAWs have been copying each other for ages, look how quickly they all jumped on the "freeze" bandwagon two years ago. Most audio apps have scissors tools, it's not like they're all going to sue Ableton.

CTRL+E is very efficient for when you're only usin it now and then. But if yo're heavily into an editing session and are working with lots of audio clips, it quickly slows you down. Scissors are great when you need to make MANY edits in one go. I write glitchy music, it's something I'd use A LOT.

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:01 pm

honestly I dont use cubase's new warp feature so I can't compare it to live. If you have time explaine to me so I dont have read the manual that would be great. I just use cube to mix and efx mainly, also a good tool to archive. I heard the new timestretch was similiar to live. Dont get me wrong I use cubase to time stretch pieces of audio but not how live does it with markers as you change the tempo..I use More the grab and expand method pm time stretching, which is cool, I wish live also did that.

No I think you can get sued for stealing unique features. You ever read the agreements. Once I did

Talked about not being able to reverse code or copy code as a infringement of copyrights. Also in the states, copy right suits have to go all the way. They are not allowed to settle out of court any more. They are saying HIP hop will suffer the most from this new law.

Anyway you need programs like live and you need programs that are different like cubase/logic. Can you imagine for a new user to get cubase sx and it can do everything it does plus everything live does? For me a dream cum true but for the new guy, The learning curve would be tremendous. I dont know about you guys, but I get way more pieces of music done when I have less options to work with. THats why 80% of my arrangments are done in live.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:14 am

John Daminato wrote: No I think you can get sued for stealing unique features. You ever read the agreements. Once I did Talked about not being able to reverse code or copy code as a infringement of copyrights.

Software and music are vastly different in terms of this. SX stole the click and drag cycle bar from Logic, Logic stole PDC and everybody stole the idea of VST (DX, RTAS, AU,MAS).... At this point it's more a matter of who comes up with an idea first etc. but everybody plays catch up. Live got freeze, PDC, racks are like clipping in Digital Performer, and track settings in Logic. There's no way they could sure Live for grabbing the click and drag zoom tool, and Ableton REALLY should, it's a great idea.

I dont know about you guys, but I get way more pieces of music done when I have less options to work with. THats why 80% of my arrangments are done in live.

Maybe you should get a tambourine! I mean seriously, you would be writing songs for days. You better look good in a mini skirt though!

OK for you, options are a hassle, great, only use what you have to then. Choices do not limit you, you limit you.

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:43 pm