can you play guitar (live) w/7.3 ms latency using guit rig?

pisquano · Post by **pisquano** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:48 pm

I was thinking about using guitar rig to play live

do you think that 7.3 ms latency allows to do that?
this is not to record...is to play guitar live using guitar rig
thanks

xuoham · Post by **xuoham** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:00 pm

7.3 ms ... in AND out? Sounds good!
I do live looped guitar that kind of requires good timing all the time with 8 ms latency (4ms in, 4 ms out) and i find it very bearable.
Above 10ms, it starts getting really annoying, unless you do some super liquid ambient.

pisquano · Post by **pisquano** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:11 pm

xuoham wrote:7.3 ms ... in AND out? Sounds good!
I do live looped guitar that kind of requires good timing all the time with 8 ms latency (4ms in, 4 ms out) and i find it very bearable.
Above 10ms, it starts getting really annoying, unless you do some super liquid ambient.

yes 7.3 overall (as shown in the audio menu)using Asio4all with Saffire LE 128 samples 44.1K....even though I didn't do the proper test to measure the latency as I lost the file w/the lesson (you know linking in & out blah blah)
in fact some people say that any latency close to 7ms is virtually unnoticeable to human hear...

Sartori · Post by **Sartori** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:27 pm

I'm fine personally with my guitar rig playing, current latency being below 20ms, Anything higher than that starts to throw me off. Below 20 I can still notice sometimes, but it's still playable.

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:13 pm

if you've ever stood more than about 20 feet from your amp at a show, you've likely experienced more latency than the 7 you're asking about. it's more than doable.

nolus · Post by **nolus** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:32 pm

dj superflat wrote:if you've ever stood more than about 20 feet from your amp at a show, you've likely experienced more latency than the 7 you're asking about. it's more than doable.

in fact 7.3 mS is the time it takes for sound to travel aproximately 2.5 meters. but dont forget to add in the delay caused by vst plugin buffer size.

pisquano · Post by **pisquano** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:34 pm

dj superflat wrote:if you've ever stood more than about 20 feet from your amp at a show, you've likely experienced more latency than the 7 you're asking about. it's more than doable.

so i guess it's fine...
interesting

thanks

YILA · Post by **YILA** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:59 pm

yes - but you need a monitor close to you otherwise this distance latencey is double from the card and the monitoring....

i play through my soundcard and live with effects and dont find it a problem for the kind of music i play, as soon as you go into a club without wedges and the speakers are facing away from you 10ft either side the latencey is a big problem. I would never play guitar through any kind of latencey in a "real band" mind you - all analogue signal path for me.

Anubis · Post by **Anubis** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:43 pm

pisquano wrote:...using Asio4all with Saffire LE 128 samples 44.1K...

You should be able to go even lower than that for recording. I've got an M-Audio transit running at 80 samples(48Khz) using Asio4All.

veggieryan · Post by **veggieryan** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:18 pm

yeah,

that all sounds fine and good, but there is a difference between having your amp 10 feet away and having 7ms latency on your soundcard.
you need to realize that that 7ms is the base figure.. then if your amp is far away thats another 7ms on top of it.
plus each vst has a little latency added on. plus the vst buffer in live.

for midi drums you have to add the midi latency which on firewire and usb is often more than 10ms. its lower on cardbus.. another reason to go pci/pcmcia

the point: it all adds up.
in my experience. 64 samples or 2ms in + 2ms out=4ms total is the maximum for comfort. higher is doable but it just feels funny.
usually when you play guitar or drums they are acoustic. and they are right next to you.. then the latency is around 1ms.

so you can have your junky firewire interface and 7ms latency if you want.. bu.... i had to throw that thing out (first a firewire 410(really junky) then a motu ultralite(less junky but still firewire)) because it was driving people nuts.

everyone? no. some people are fine with 10ms ... but others can tell... usually guitarist and drummers.

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:33 pm

if you've played big halls, you're often (e.g.) 20 feet from your amp, and ten from any monitor. blanket statements that it can't be done or is really bad or real musician's notice are silly, nothing more than your unsupported -- and contradicted by experience of many -- opinions. (yes, if you double up the latency by playing via SW plus an amp that you're not next to, that could be a problem.)

and the statement that most guitar players are playing acoustics -- and thus used to hearing sound from the instrument -- is similarly silly. i'm willing to wager real money that the bulk of folk using SW for their guitars are playing electrics (the amp modelling in GRII for acoustics just isn't very good, you just need a CA blonde).

veggieryan · Post by **veggieryan** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:34 am

well,
you can compare it to an amp across the room.
but for me and my cohorts... 7ms in guitar rig... no worky. 4ms.. worky.
why? dunno.
the difference with midi on firewire vs cardbus is even greater... if you cant hear the 10ms of additional midi latency on your midi drum pads with your firewire card you might have mental problems.
bottom line: cardbus/pci have lower latency than firewire. they have much lower midi latency as well.
you may not be able to tell. but some of us can.. deal with it.

continuous · Post by **continuous** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:52 am

i might have mental problems.

MrYellow · Post by **MrYellow** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:54 am

If you need to cut your real-world latency in a live situation.....

Use in-ear monitoring instead of the foldback.

If your computer is doing 7.3ms and you're standing another 3-10ms away
from the foldback then switching to in-ear will remove the travel time
latency and leave you only with your gears latency.

edit: btw.... for rough math purposes, 1ms = aprox 1 foot at speed of sound.

-Ben

MrYellow · Post by **MrYellow** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:58 am

if you've played big halls, you're often (e.g.) 20 feet from your amp, and
ten from any monitor. blanket statements that it can't be done or is really
bad or real musician's notice are silly,

Well....... Yes..... Very doable....... but I'd feel real safe putting money on
you walking closer to the drummer for tech sections.

You'll also notice any band that plays on a larger stage with any regularity
will be using in-ear monitoring.

-Ben