A shameful display of desperation

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:11 pm

OK.

Please allow me to indulge myself. This is going to be a rant. A big one.

About a week ago, I went to an open house held by one of the local recording schools around here in Montreal. I won’t name names. They were hosting a bunch of prospective students in their expensive and impressive facility. In this facility, they teach video production, audio “sound design” and recording engineering. Oh yeah, and “music/entertainment industry artist management” or some other type thing; I’m paraphrasing here. I wasn’t interested in training, nor in working with them, but was interested in the cost of their programs and curriculum for other reasons.

Anyways, these guys start off by herding about 50 people into a room meant for (and set up for) around 20-30, with the windows closed. Yuck, this place smells like too much human being. There, they show us some two-bit crapola videos by some former students. Not impressive at all. Then, the director comes in to talk to us, and we’re told how rare it is for such an esteemed man to speak. Wow, what a fucking privilege; note the sarcasm there.

So, the director starts laying out the pedigree of his personal experience, complete with name-dropping galore. I worked with so and so, this person was taught here and he worked with so and so. This guy goes on for like twenty minutes, not really saying anything.

Then, we break down into smaller groups – those interested in video go to one room, those interested in audio to another, and those interested in “Music industry”. Naturally, the audio group was the largest. We go to a half a million dollar room that in fact, DOES look quite impressive.

So, this other guy starts telling us that there ARE jobs as professional recording engineers. RREEAAALLLLYYY!?!?! I doubt that. The advent of feasible and decent quality computer based home recording has hit the studios’ bank accounts hard. Coupled with that, production is down, in the sense that the Record industry has cut back production in general to conserve costs – more of their expenses go to marketing (and lawsuits?) now than ever before, and their gross incomes are DOWN. They still produce as much music, but the work is being concentrated in “assembly line” style recording, with a few major recording studios getting slightly more work, and other studios dying hard everywhere else. Who exactly will hire this batch of recording engineers?

The director comes in again, starts name dropping, and telling us how we can all succeed in this industry. Yah, right. I mean this guy is NAME DROPPING, that’s all he can do. What a braggart! Then, he opens the floor to questions…

I might add, that in my experience, herding people from room to room and throwing speeches at them is NOT an open house. Allowing free movement within your facility and answering questions as they come up IS an open house. What I am describing is more like an indoctrination session here.

OK, back on topic; the director finally starts fielding questions. Since he is in a room full of laypersons, who don’t know much about the technical details of audio or anything, all the questions are related to the fancy gear he has to show off, and all the WOWEE show biz people he knows. Absolutely useless questions, really.

SO, I decide to get the questions on track.

Me: “Sir, what is your graduate placement rate? I mean, in numbers, what percentage of your graduates get jobs IN THEIR FIELD of training?”

Director: “Well, I really don’t know, but it depends on what you define as in the field. Blah blah blah blah”.

This guy totally waffles. Essentially, if you include the poor bastards who blow their money on training here and end up working as salesmen for a music store (getting minimum wage plus one percent commission), and the dude working for the local radio station as a janitor, then I guess you have a pretty high placement rate, dontcha?

To my disappointment, the other attendees don’t pick up on my hint: START ASKING PERTINENT QUESTIONS PEOPLE! All they ask is more fluff. “what does that machine do?” “What are the walls made of?” “did so and so record here?” etc.

So, let’s try again:

Me: “How much does your program cost, tuition, lab time and supplies all inclusive?”

Director: “Well, I really don’t know, I would have to defer to our admissions expert.”

Me: “Your admissions guy is right there. Mr. Admissions Guy, how much does this cost?”

Admissions Guy: “Uh, well, there is provincial and federal student loans available for those who qualify.”

Me: “Yah, but how much does it cost? Let’s assume I don’t qualify, or I don’t want a loan.”

Admissions Guy: “Well, we can book an appointment and we can discuss this in detail to see whether you qualify or not.”

FUCKER!

All I wanted was a straight answer. I can totally smell what’s going on here. These guys are getting desperate. Admissions are down, the industry is collapsing, and here they are entrapping people into student debt with the promise of training that will probably not result in a job. This is borderline fraud!

I sit patiently, wait for the presentation to end, listen to some more non-pertinent questions, and leave. On the way out, I can hear the enthusiasm of other attendees. Poor bastards. They can’t say I didn’t try to warn ‘em. By the way, the price, based on competitors (who answered my questions when I emailed them or phoned) is probably around 10 to 13 THOUSAND dollars. That’s a lot of money for training that will NOT get you a job. If you are a hobbyist (like me) then you REALLY have to decide how much you want to do this, or whether you can be self taught, or if there are cheaper training alternatives… However, for desperate unemployed people (who appeared to be the majority of the audience) this is immoral manipulation!

I guess my point is that the night in question really disappointed me. The entertainment industry is a sick animal, ready to die, so it can be reborn. Yet these cavemen are trying to preserve it as long as possible.

I am not belittling training. I have received some training personally, and it was an excellent expense. I needed help with getting an “ear” for mixing and mastering, and I went to some friends who were more experienced. I mean, if you’re a hobbyist, why learn to use expensive gear you’re never going to touch?

Anyways, just rants. Sorry.

Any thoughts, comments or arguments?

L8er
Montrealbreaks

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:18 pm

dego ça...

-Paws

rajcoont · Post by **rajcoont** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:48 pm

there's lots of these bullshit schools in vancouver and toronto as well (i should know as i went for half a semester at one before realizing i was being fleeced) they prey on young naive kids who want a 'cool' job, but mostly dream of being rock stars.....I tell anyone who asks me to stay far away from those schools, put the money towards a computer, teach yourself, and if you really want know about this stuff, volunteer at a post house or even a film co-op (you're going to end up volunteering when you 'graduate' anyway, you just won't be able to afford to, with $40,000 in student loans

hat · Post by **hat** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:47 pm

Yup. Sounds familiar.

I actually grew up in Montreal and got accepted at Musitechnic (don't know if it's the same school you're referring to, but in 1990, it was one of the few around besides Trebas). For reasons to long to explain, I decided against enrolling, despite being excited about "getting in" and only years later did I realise what a wise move I did by not going and saving my $15k for the 1 year program.

One of my best friends did attend the school, with high expectations and ended up being a roadie for the band Uzeb/Michel Cusson band. He had fun and learn a lot while doing a small canadian tour, but he's still paying for that school loan, years later. Today, I'm the one teaching him about samplers and soundcards, stuff that was part of his curriculum 10 years ago.

I've learned more by reading books, magazines and trials & error than I ever could in that school, and I'm making a good living through music.

Having said that, I do miss Montreal and considering a return after being in the US for 11 years. cheers.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:26 pm

Well, i work for an audio engineering school in the US. I can't publically represent the school, hence the anonymous post.

Anyway, i don't know what the program of the school you're talking about is like, but it *is* hard to cram everything one needs to know to be a professional engineer into a program that is only about a year long. That said, i do think that if a student works hard enough, they will come out a school like that with the knowledge they need.

Now, about the recording industry - I have to disagree with your statement that it is dying and hard to find work in. Yes, the major labels are in deep shit, but there are still a million independent bands that want to record their demo, or their first record, or whatever. This means that there are plenty of recording studios that get enough work to prosper. A close friend of mine owns one of these small studios and is doing quite well. I worked for him, and several other studios before teaching.

Also, the recording industry isn't the entire picture for the audio industry. You do realize that every TV news cast keeps a whole crew of audio guys employed, right? in fact, every TV program has a team of audio professionals. Maybe that's not a "cool" job, but so what? it is a career, and not a bad one. And what about radio? What about film? What about live sound in clubs? What about theater?

Oh, and my school's job placement rate is about 70% for paid positions. That's pretty good considering most of these students are dumb kids who want to be rock stars. And most of the remaining 30% are interns at pretty nice places.

whatev, that's my 2 cents.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:37 pm

Well my own personal morals say that fraud is not really immoral - If people fall for things and get fucked over because they didn't ask pertinent questions beforehand, then they only have themselves to blame - Luckily you were smart enough to start asking questions that may affect your own life and your own situation.

But realise this: Some people do not go into audio-related education/training with the idea of getting a well paid job in a recording studio. Believe it or not, but some of us are artists and musicians for the love of music and not money.

I myself start at Middlesex University on their 3-year Sonic Arts program this September. Now I'm clearly not expecting to walk into a music related job, if I wanted to do that I'd take music technology. No, Sonic Arts is not about making money and hitting the charts, its about expressing oneself through the medium of sound.

As an afficionado of all kinds of sound, I can respect artists more than I can the "cash-seekers" of our world, and I believe that I have a certain something that people will enjoy, and this is the reason I am willing to take on a large student loan, move out of home and into a student lifestyle. Maybe its my young age and apathy hasn't yet set in, but I believe you can do anything you want as long as you make that choice and work towards it.

Which is my plan.

So... not a jab at anyone personally, just the point of view from the other side of the bridge.

rajcoont · Post by **rajcoont** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:17 pm

good counterpoints, i suppose i didn't really explain my whole thoughts on these types of schools. Although I do honestly believe the majority of them out there are just cash grabs, if you're vry lucky you can have the good fortune to get an amazing instructor (i was very lucky in my one semester to have had two incredubly talented teachers, who both left the school next semeseter to move into admin, which sealed the deal for me dropping out) but I found the students much more disheartening than the school. It's mostly upper middle class kids who can afford the luxury of spending shitloads of money on a class to learn about music, and then realizing that it's a huge amount of actual learning and working, and not very glamourous at all, and so they drop out after the first year, and the schools just line up a whole new group of suckers to keep the machine going.....I just think that anyone with enthusiasm for the inner working of the audio world is far better off volunteering at some local studio, even making coffee and watching and asking questions when appropriate than dropping that amount of dosh on a tech school..in the two years your freinds are digging themselves into a insumountable debt, you will be getting the same on the job training they will still be volunteering for when they graduate

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:25 pm

Anonymous wrote:Well, i work for an audio engineering school in the US. I can't publically represent the school, hence the anonymous post.

Anyway, i don't know what the program of the school you're talking about is like, but it *is* hard to cram everything one needs to know to be a professional engineer into a program that is only about a year long. That said, i do think that if a student works hard enough, they will come out a school like that with the knowledge they need.

Now, about the recording industry - I have to disagree with your statement that it is dying and hard to find work in. Yes, the major labels are in deep shit, but there are still a million independent bands that want to record their demo, or their first record, or whatever. This means that there are plenty of recording studios that get enough work to prosper. A close friend of mine owns one of these small studios and is doing quite well. I worked for him, and several other studios before teaching.

Also, the recording industry isn't the entire picture for the audio industry. You do realize that every TV news cast keeps a whole crew of audio guys employed, right? in fact, every TV program has a team of audio professionals. Maybe that's not a "cool" job, but so what? it is a career, and not a bad one. And what about radio? What about film? What about live sound in clubs? What about theater?

Oh, and my school's job placement rate is about 70% for paid positions. That's pretty good considering most of these students are dumb kids who want to be rock stars. And most of the remaining 30% are interns at pretty nice places.

whatev, that's my 2 cents.

I getcha, I never made generalizations about all schools, but this one in particular really stunk. Their unwillingness to state a placement rate, and their avoidance of the subject of cost (instead preferring to appeal to the "don't worry about it, pay later" consumerist instinct) are HUGE red flags fo me.

Perhaps this is a Canadian trend, where there is a surplus of labour in this skill field.

Around here, I can make a few observations:

1. Home recording is growing and becoming higher quality as technology improves. The days requiring $10K to make a recording are forever over.
2. There are a lot of unemployed or underemployed audio engineers out there.
3. There are a lot of desperately unemployed people looking for marketable skills in GROWTH industries.
4. These unemployed would be better off with skill training pertaining to industries where there is significant growth and room for entry level positions.

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:28 pm

Amberience wrote:Well my own personal morals say that fraud is not really immoral - If people fall for things and get fucked over because they didn't ask pertinent questions beforehand, then they only have themselves to blame - Luckily you were smart enough to start asking questions that may affect your own life and your own situation.

But realise this: Some people do not go into audio-related education/training with the idea of getting a well paid job in a recording studio. Believe it or not, but some of us are artists and musicians for the love of music and not money.

I myself start at Middlesex University on their 3-year Sonic Arts program this September. Now I'm clearly not expecting to walk into a music related job, if I wanted to do that I'd take music technology. No, Sonic Arts is not about making money and hitting the charts, its about expressing oneself through the medium of sound.

As an afficionado of all kinds of sound, I can respect artists more than I can the "cash-seekers" of our world, and I believe that I have a certain something that people will enjoy, and this is the reason I am willing to take on a large student loan, move out of home and into a student lifestyle. Maybe its my young age and apathy hasn't yet set in, but I believe you can do anything you want as long as you make that choice and work towards it.

Which is my plan.

So... not a jab at anyone personally, just the point of view from the other side of the bridge.

Hey man - you sound like a libertarian! I consider that a good thing by the way...

Back on topic, I am a hobbyist - that is, I have a very rewarding career outside of music.

So, I wasn't there to find a career or anything - I was there just checking the joint out so to speak. Therefore, I DO understand what you mean when you say that some people go into expensive audio training for the love of it alone. I have devoted almost 8 years of my adult life to music, giving every minute of my free time to it - in fact, it killed two relationships of mine in the past. Only difference is, I am 85% self taught.

Having said that, this "love of the art" was NOT the "angle" that the school in question was taking. They took a "get a good job (almost) guaranteed". They were shysters, plain and simple. Why else would they not answer starightforward questions regarding their placement rate and cost?

Congrats on your acceptance to university! I hope it fulfills you as my university years (Non-music and non-technical arts degree) fulfilled me! You will have a much better education, (delivered by genuine music lovers and not rip-off artists), compared to the poor bastards who sign up for the one year, 700 hour instruction with the school I visited.

L8er
Montrealbreaks

tjwett · Post by **tjwett** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:35 pm

i actually attended one of these diploma factories, only the one i went to was for graphic design. i went in knowing more than most of my instructors. they were all pretty awful, and all were former students of the school. total recruitment thing. there is an old saying; "those who can't do-teach". so true.

anyway, $15,000 later and i didn't learn anything more than i could have from a $30 book. i did actually get a job, well an internship that turned into a design position, which by chance turned into a music composition/sound design position that was pretty damn cool. i don't attribute any of this to attending that cult-i mean school though.

these schools are usually always pretty lame. even Full Sail is shit. in fact, i haven't heard of any that are any good. the only good thing was that i earned the last few credits i needed for a degree.

special ed · Post by **special ed** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:10 pm

the recording school hype is just that. HYPE. the adminstrators are no different than car salesmen. they are just trying to sell the naive on something for the most part. the problem i have with them is they do use the part about getting a job in a recording studio or label to entice the unknowing. alot of times, its not that the student is just in it for the money, but the idea of working in the music industry sounds better than flipping burgers, bagging groceries, or breaking their back in a factory. you cant blame the students for that. and we also have too many recording schools turning out anywhere between 30 and 300 students every month to go into the job market. well its a dying market. they dont tell you that though. if they advertised in a hobbyist sense and not career one, then it would be a little more honest. also the recording school background is not what gets someone a job, its the "who you know" thing. of coarse the people that work for these institutions will debate this all day because its their job we are discussing. the best way to learn is take the thousands of dollars that one would spend and buy the equipment, buy a couple books, and always read the manuals. i know this because i was at one point a naive kid duped into paying a high tuiton to attend a certain school in arizona. they would say, "this is THE WAY to get into the field of music" and they had a lady there that "had great connections to get the students internships at prestigious studios" which just turned out to be a secratary that was the mother of the guy that ran the school. they had instructors that worked on some big artists album, but when you look for their name on the credits, its not there. they were probably just making the coffee at most. but in fairness to the schools i will say that there is a significant number of students that just want to get in and get rich quick, without paying their dues. but that doesnt help those that live and die by their passion for making music, and when they get out of the school, they are just thrown into the catagory of people that just want to get rich. before there were recording schools, if one wanted to get into it they could just try to get a job a studio and be an apprentice somewhat. today its just more institutionalised and beaurocratic like everything else. the schools are somewhat to blame for that. imo.

tjwett · Post by **tjwett** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:34 pm

totally. i know a number of people working for some big studios and post houses in NYC and they didn't get there from attending a school. they started at minimum wage at the age of 25 and ran errands for a year or more. then, if they got lucky, there was an engineer who liked them enough to make them an assistant. it's got nothing to do with what you know, surely not if you learned it in a school.

recently i inquired about a job through a friend at a post house and he said i could start right away. as a runner. for minimum wage. now i've got a decent amount of experience in the field of music and sound for t.v., and i actually had a pretty cushy job doing it at one time. and still, minimum wage. i just can't afford to do that right now. but that's just the way it goes. you have to A: know someone, and B: pay your dues and put in the time as a grunt. pay attention, be fast, be nice. that's your only hope.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:46 am

Y'know, whenever anyone asks me whether they should attend one of those schools I give em a good grilling about how serious they are and what it is they want/expect to do after "graduating". If the person is motivated and has a clue or two in their head, I usually tell them they'd be better off spending their money on a computer and some software and READING THE MANUAL.

I've done the occasional guest lecture in the past at those places and it always seems that the room has 15 guys who are not really into it, and one or two bright sparks up the front asking all the questions - you can tell a mile off which ones are going to make it in the real world. But they'd probably make it if they had bought the gear and taught themselves.

I tend to feel that most of those schools are diploma mills designed to get parents to fork out $$$ for little johhny to get (they think) advancement in a lucrative field and job security - HAH!

Music [itself/biz/industry - whatever] is 50% ability and 50% COMPATability. Get yourself some skills (and a few clues), show promise and enthusiasm, be prepared to pay some dues and people will come out of the woodwork to give you a "leg up" with your career, whatever level you're at - trust me.

paddy

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:12 pm

Thanks M-Breaks

I do kind of feel sorry for people who fall for this whole "get a job in less than a year!" bullshit.

Its not that easy, and if all your after is the money then its even harder!! People get into the music industry because they excel at what they do, and the reason they excel is because they love it so much.

Its quite disheartening reading about these hype institutions.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:22 pm

I'd also like to re-iterate that there are artists and "cash-seekers" - That isn't to say that if you make money from your craft that you're not an artist, I don't mean that at all.

What I mean is that people who class their craft as being the primary reason for doing what they do, I would say are artists. People who class money as the primary reason are cash-seekers.

I once had an interview with a small firm in my town, they advertised an apprentice position as a designer. I went for it and the interview went well, but I was at college at the time and in my brainwashed state, I didn't want to quit - I didn't get the job because of that.

My life could be so much different now if I hadn't been such a sheep in my youth.