A shameful display of desperation

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:10 pm

Amberience.
I was at MDX doing sonic arts up until a year ago. I hope you know more about audio than i did when i started. I expected to be taught it (i was a complete beginner), and i quit when i realised that i had to learn it myself (ie trial and error in bedroom). Theres some people there doing some amazing shit with supercollider, max etc. really deep stuff, v impressive at the outset. But i wasn't anywhere near that level and was behind from the word go. If, like me at the time, you've got some new equpt and want to learn how to use it, take a year out first and do so, cos when on the course, you're gonna have to express with it straight away. I also found that there was way too much emphasis on concept rather than practise, system rather than form, tech rather than art. and it wasn't my thing.

this is just my experience, you'll probably be fine, i just wanted to test the strength of yr smug little balloon

but u did say "apathy hasn't yet set in, but I believe you can do anything you want as long as you make that choice and work towards it." so bigup yerself and good luck.

at the end of the day i reckon that something like this (making music with computers) needs to be found out, not taught, and thats how most great music gets made. teaching a class the way to make music can only result in formulaic music can it not? most innovators from the past disregarded the rules and the 'usual' way and experimented in their own time, to sometimes amazing effect. should there be a 'right way and a wrong way' or should there be your way?

o yeah and ambi, check out job opportunities for sound installation artists. i can't find any.

Rx · Post by Rx » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:38 pm

i went back to school for audio and after a year realized that it was a total waste of money - if i wanted to be an engineer, i'd still have to intern for nothing, which i could have done instead of going to school. phhpt.

special ed · Post by **special ed** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:02 pm

while we are on the subject of careers in music, does anyone know of any good websites for actual jobs in the industry? i see some that want an upfront fee to see the listings, that kind of seems a bit shady to me, has anyone ever had an experience with those?

astromass · Post by **astromass** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:51 pm

i earned a bachelor's degree from a state school (MTSU) in recording industry management with emphasis on production and technology...i found out that i could learn more at home, smoking spliffs, in front of my 486 pc and mastertracks pro 4 and a roland d5! i mean, who wants to record on a SSL or Neotek console when ya got a powerbook and ableton live 3.0??? i graduated in 1998..boy has technology changed!
=)_+()Dd

"if i knew then what know now....."

Nick M. · Post by **Nick M.** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:06 pm

man, I am going through hell trying to make this decision right now. I have the choice between going to a school in Arizona and just moving somewhere, finding a shitty job, interning, and working my way up. I do this primarily because I love the music, but I also wish to make it my career. I would preferably like to do something in the film post-production field. Any advise from some of you people that have already been there and done that? I am open to whatever at this point, because I am about to graduate college and the possibilities are somewhat overwhelming at this point.

thanks,

- Nick

tjwett · Post by **tjwett** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:40 pm

Nick M. wrote:...I would preferably like to do something in the film post-production field...

don't go to the school in Arizona. here's why in a nutshell; the ONLY way to work in the field is to start at the very bottom, no matter how much you now. that's it. the ONLY position you will get anywhere will be a runner, school or no school. they don't care.

a friend of mine who works in post even says they don't like to hire people who know anything beyond audio basics for a bunch of reasons. one being that they don't want a runner in there opening his mouth all the time and trying to help beyond his job description. and also, the runners who know their stuff usually don't last long. the position is shit and pays shit and they quickly feel like they aren't earning what they are worth. they WANT beginners. the whole industry is based on seniority and they just want someone to learn how that particular place operates and be able to move up as needed.

if you're gonna go anywhere go to NYC or LA. those are the best towns for post work. be prepared to make minimum wage for a while. buddy up with an engineer and when it's time for his current assistant to move on, you'll be next in line. that's pretty much the way it goes.

i mean, once in a great while i'll see a help wanted ad on the web for an engineer's position in LA that pays $100k/year but the requirements are usually that you've worked on some pretty serious projects for a long time. oh yeah, and be prepared to learn Pro Tools and Avid systems. you could possibly luck out and find a place running a Logic/Final Cut setup which is a little more friendly but those aren't real common in post. the fact is that you'll learn more making coffee in a real post house in one week than you would in an entire year at some school. and when you finally get out of that school you'll just have to be a runner anyway. seriously.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:07 am

Schools can do some helpful things, such as:

Giving job placement assistance
Getting students access to gear
Providing a structure for education
Giving access to people who can answer questions
Introducing students to peers with like minded interests

If any of those things sound appealing, keep your eyes open, do some research and make sure potential schools do in fact have the ability to deliver the goods.

I also did the make coffe/clean bathrooms/mop vomit intern thing. However, some of the stuff I learned in the recording classes I took while studying music helped me quickly jump to doing ProTools work. Other interns who started at the studio months ahead of me were still answering phones and happy if they got to wrap a mic cable.

School can be positive. And like most things, it can also be negative. Knowing exactly what you want to get out of it and doing a lot of research will help ensure you don't waste your money.

Just trying to put a little balance to all the negativity...

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:36 pm

Anonymous wrote:Amberience.
I was at MDX doing sonic arts up until a year ago. I hope you know more about audio than i did when i started. I expected to be taught it (i was a complete beginner), and i quit when i realised that i had to learn it myself (ie trial and error in bedroom). Theres some people there doing some amazing shit with supercollider, max etc. really deep stuff, v impressive at the outset. But i wasn't anywhere near that level and was behind from the word go. If, like me at the time, you've got some new equpt and want to learn how to use it, take a year out first and do so, cos when on the course, you're gonna have to express with it straight away. I also found that there was way too much emphasis on concept rather than practise, system rather than form, tech rather than art. and it wasn't my thing.

this is just my experience, you'll probably be fine, i just wanted to test the strength of yr smug little balloon

but u did say "apathy hasn't yet set in, but I believe you can do anything you want as long as you make that choice and work towards it." so bigup yerself and good luck.

at the end of the day i reckon that something like this (making music with computers) needs to be found out, not taught, and thats how most great music gets made. teaching a class the way to make music can only result in formulaic music can it not? most innovators from the past disregarded the rules and the 'usual' way and experimented in their own time, to sometimes amazing effect. should there be a 'right way and a wrong way' or should there be your way?

o yeah and ambi, check out job opportunities for sound installation artists. i can't find any.

As I understand it, its not a teaching course. All they do is give you the space to be yourself .. pretty much how Tony explained it to me anyway.

I'll be fine - Although I'm a bit worried about needing some kind of laptop.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:25 pm

wish they'd told me that to start with! good luck man.

you're lucky you won't have holger...

pharmakonMtl · Post by **pharmakonMtl** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:06 pm

I 'm in the camp that believes choosing a school, especially one that allows for some artistic license or flavour, on the basis of "will I get a decent-paying job at the end of this?" is deluding themselves. Sorry if this scratches some of you the wrong way, but come on... Money is no substitute for passion when we're talking motivation. Have you heard the money-oriented Music Industry lately? You only need to look there to catch my drift. You have to have love what you're doing, or at least something about to it. Otherwise you might as well be a ROBOT.

The criterion for choosing a school or career should be something more like this:

"Am I willing to practically starve for most of my life in order to do <x> for the rest of my life?"

if yes, then it doesn't matter how much it costs if it gives you a push in the right direction. If you are passionate, truly passionate, then you Will find a way to make up that cash difference eventually.

If no, then you should seriously try and find something that fits this criterion.

OK, i'm putting my fantasy world away now.

I don't think these 1-year schools are inherantly bad, but sketchy enrollment protocols definately make them seem like they are hiding something. I think that they are perfect launching pads ffor people who don't want or need a complete 3-4 year degree or lack the confidence/experience/tools to just go out and do it themselves without schooling, as long as you can motivate yourself.

Economically theses schools probably make a lot more sense in the US as opposed to Canada since their tuition for Uni is so high.

I attended a computer-programming school like this, and there was definately some useful foundational knowledge to be learned there. I don't program anymore really, and because of the depth of understanding that i eventually wanted from the subject (i had aspirations of programming the Next Big Audio Software), i pretty much abandoned it-- but i don't think sound engineers will run into these problems as much since it's so much more hands-on and requires so much less theoretical knowledge. Anyway, i didn't have the sensibility then that i do now (or that i think i have). But 17,000$ CDN is an expensive learning experience in the extreme.

.5*pharmakon

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:39 pm

pharmakonMtl wrote: "Am I willing to practically starve for most of my life in order to do <x> for the rest of my life?"

.5*pharmakon

I agree Pharmakon (nice name BTW). If you are willing to sacrifice, then money is not the issue.

BUT, that does not give one of these schools the right to take predatory advantage of this willingness to sacrifice.

Also, there was a large group of people who were probably just looking for training for a skilled JOB so they FEED THEIR CHILDREN or GET OFF WELFARE. I wanted to shake them and scream at them to get a welding certificate or heavy machine operator's lisence instead. Less tuition, less training time, more job prospects. Or become a plumber. But it was these people that this recording school was also appealing to, intending to entrap them in USELESS student loans with USELESS education.

What I am saying is that there are a LOT of legit trade schools out there, but this legitimacy is in really short supply in the recording school racket.

L8er
Montrealbreaks

pharmakonMtl · Post by **pharmakonMtl** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:07 pm

I agree with you, Motrealbreaks, in that they seem to be scamming people who are not "in the know". But that is the nature of the scam, and i don't think it's gonna change anytime soon in any field, be it online diplomas, nigerian sympathy spam or recording schools.

You were lucky in that you realized what was going on very early on in the stage of the game (before you put money down). But people have to be responsible for their own doings. It is up to them to research a program and find out if it's really for them. I feel sorry for people who enroll in these schools as a last-ditch effort to pull themselves out of debt (what amazing decisions got them into so much debt, i wonder?), but they should have done their homework before going to any school.

I also have a feeling that this kind of thing was a new market some years ago, and these types of schools emerged before there was any kind of university equivalent, and that at that time there was an explosion of music technologies (mostly MIDI related stuffs) that were too expensive or varied or rare for joe-blow to just pick up like that, and so it made sense for a school to provide all of that.

But things are waaaay different now. It is SO EASY to become at least somewhat skilled in audio engineering these days because equipment gets better and cheaper all the time for the consumer, and because of the whole digital-studio and software thing. Since it's so easy to develop these skills on your own nowadays, it seems crazy to go and spend what it would cost to build a very decent little studio to get a chance to briefly play with those same toys (OK, you may never get to use a million-dollar board otherwise, but i don't think that they are totally necessary anymore). The problem is really that the schools havent reflected this overall change in the industry.

Cheers,

pharmakon

special ed · Post by **special ed** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:39 pm

what makes this worse now, is the fact that alot of places like in new york and l.a., you must be enrolled in such a program just to get your foot in the door as an intern. i believe it is illegal to not pay employees unless its for college credit. therefore it makes the schools seem mandatory. i swear every fucking thing in this shithole called america is being monopolized. i hope it all burns in hell. sorry for the negativity, im just pissed off.

fsk · Post by **fsk** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:44 pm

whine!

but I so fell u

I had same experience when I went on a web design course... u pay so much to get on it, then u gotta pay for each exam, which they dont tell u about and they are really expensive to do.. also if u fail an exam u have option of doing it again..altho u gotta pay again!

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Sun May 02, 2004 5:51 am

If I don't end up doing something involved with creativity for the rest of my life, I'll be another Kurt Cobain - Simple as that really.