anyone for war? pc notebook or c2d macbook/macbookpro? GO!

[darkcatt]

OK Mac is an overpriced pc.

1. I am not fending MSN but now as vista comes out with a 64bit os, we can go above 2 gigs of ram. MSN has also borrowed alot of the same functionality as well as locking down the core so it is just as stable and secure as OSX {symantec and mcafee are suing over this becaue their products are not steadliy required any more.

2. you can run osx, the mac monitors, mice etc all on a PC. So if I gove you a big white box with a pear on the side chances are you will not know.

3. Many people love shrek and most of the Pixar films ( they were all done on HP workstations)

4. Now that they are using intel as an OEM chip maker, Simpletech as a ram manu and 1000 of people locked in sweat shops in China to make their mother boads there really is no physical difference, except for minor changes in the bus system.
http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,71138-0.html


http://www.computeractive.co.uk/persona ... hop-claims




5. Mac suck cause everything is proprietary. You need airport cards to get wirless connectivity, and if you run any non apple plug ins -even if apple OEMs them through that company you will get left like a fat girl on a firday night when you want support/ warranty help that you paid for.

[piZMo]

mate i agree i have been using my G3 firewire powerbook for six years, but now its time to move on...

...after a bit of digging i've been leaning more towards the top end c2d macbook for the price, i don't use video so i don't think there's any real need to go pro just for the sep. vid card, extra screen inches, .16mhz, and firewire 800 port

i've got about 2250 euro and wouldn't mind picking up serato as well

so i think a 2ghz macbook and serato should be doable.

[darkcatt]

if you like the feel of a mac book, get a sony vaio. THey even come in white!

[Pasha]

I'd like to quote SubFunk wisdom first :

and point no.1 is that i have never heard any music being essentially better, created on high tech machines than on whatever works, really!

A part from that I had the same decision to take some weeks ago.
I decided to go Black MacBook.
My only regret is that I should have gone for the white one (the middle priced 2.0Ghz C2D 80GB) because the black one even if it comes with a 120GB HDD makes you pay a big difference (200 Euros). The Drive I have inside the MacBook can be bought new with 105 Euros.....
A 320GB FW D2 Extreme drive (plus USB and FW800 interface) costs 199 Euros. Lesson learned.
I have done a price comparison with similar spec laptop and I have found some interesting issues. The White MacBook (C2D 2.0Ghz 80GB HDD) comes at 1499 Euros after a 2GB RAM expansion while the black one comes for 1699 Euros. If you go shopping for a C2D 2.0Ghz (T7200) with 667Mhz RAM (check this out, 667Mhz RAM is often not common for Laptops, they use 533 Mhz RAM to lower cost) you'll find less models than expected. I found Acer to have a 120GB HDD model, Integrated WebCam and 667MHz RAM that costs about 1659 Euros. Although there are models priced for less, they have lower CPU specs like T5600, half the cache @ 1.83 Ghz or T5500 half the cache @ 1.66 Ghz. Amilo P 1536 comes with a T5600, 1 GB 533 Mhz Ram and 120 GB HDD (plus dedicated ATI X1600 video card) at 1100. Add two 1GB sticks and you are done with about 1300-1350 Euros. Technically the difference shouldn't be that much. You can go for other brands that offer lesser specs when you don't need a webcam or other things. I did not consider Dell because I don't like buying hardware on the Web. However D 620 comes at a very good price (RAM 533Mhz though and no T7200).

Mac OS X is the real differentiator here. I did not use XP Plug-ins so transition has been easy. I'm an happy Mac OS X user now. No more Live freezing in the middle of a song (could have been my FW Audio Interface ASIO drivers - now I use CoreAudio). My music isn't any better now, but I'm less nervous. .

The main reason for a change has been Live 6. With all that racks spreading all over my tracks my 3 years old P4 was having problems. I found myself freezing and freezing tracks, so I decided I wanted more power, more mobility. I wanted to try out a Mac so.... I jumped in.
The new Intel CPU's and chipset are very fast, it does not matter which way you'll go (Windows or Mac) but keep in mind that Vista is new and many vendors are still in the process of testing VISTA compatibility, like Ableton itself. If you decide Windows Vista, good move but wait a little until all VSTi stuff will be re-certified. Mac OS X after the painful Intel switch that left many people without Universal Binary software is now recovering fast. All major music software player are releasing UB nowadays, so it's you to decide. Mac is overpriced at a first look but brings in Mac OS X, some pretty sounds from Garage Bands, some pretty AU VST effect, an AU Soundfont player and a lot of other stuff, including running XP and Vista (this is under certification for Boot camp). There's a lot of good Open Source (freeware) software you can use so decide what you feel it's best for you. Have a nice 2007.

Hope it helps.

- Best Regards
- Pasha

[piZMo]

...awesome piece of info. thanks a million Pasha.

[Pasha]

...awesome piece of info. thanks a million Pasha.

I'm happy to help.

BTW I forgot to mention that I still need to use Parallels because my "aged" external gear has Editor/Librarian software for Windows 2000/XP and Mac OS 9. SoundDiver from e-Magic is not actively developed anymore after the merge with Apple. You can still download a PPC Mac OS X version 3.1 from Apple site but beware : you need an XSKey to use it....even if it's a beta. That's why I'll still use SoundDiver OEM that came with my Roland JV 1010. Parallels version 1970 does not work very good with MIDI, while VMWare Fusion beta does and it seems that new Parallels will also. In the meantime I prepare SysEx Files to be sent with a Mac Freeware app.
You can go http://www.dontcrack.com to take a look.
At the time of writing my nearby store is beginning the post-Xmas discount campaign with prices as low as 10%-15%. SONY AR21B at 1439 Euros (T5500 1GB 533 Mhz RAM - 100 GB HDD) or TOSHIBA A100-316 at 899 Euros (T2250 1GB 533 Mhz RAM - 80GB HDD), while Fnac in my country offers a Black MacBook with 200 Euros discount....

- Best
- Pasha

[Christiaan de Jong]

The Black macbook is nice. Its not a t7200!!!! it has 2mb l2 chache...special c2d cpu made for apple. This is why i might buy a macbook pro.l Mainly its the design. A toshiba with t7200,2gb,512 dedicated video 100 gb hd en 15,4 inch screen is 1399,- now.....Probably very good. Funy if you see the ableton performance thread. A toshiba with 1,66 c2d performing better then a macbookpro 2,33 c2d ...its running on vista...but if vista can get running on a macbook pro........yep then im down...the new vaio's arent that great..A-serie is ugly..had the old a serie..great machine best screens available...it got stolen in France. If vista/xp and osx/panther all run on a macbook pro...then it is the best choice i gues...if you dont care spending a little more money for design.

[shtreimel]

Could someone please, please, and in very romper roomish lingo, explain what I'll lose by purchasing a macbook over a macbook pro. Is the speed drop significant? If not, and I'm not using the 'puter to play games, why else would you spend the cash on the pro machine. Thanks.

[Pasha]

The Black macbook is nice. Its not a t7200!!!! it has 2mb l2 chache...special c2d cpu made for apple. This is why i might buy a macbook pro.l Mainly its the design. A toshiba with t7200,2gb,512 dedicated video 100 gb hd en 15,4 inch screen is 1399,- now.....Probably very good. Funy if you see the ableton performance thread. A toshiba with 1,66 c2d performing better then a macbookpro 2,33 c2d ...its running on vista...but if vista can get running on a macbook pro........yep then im down...the new vaio's arent that great..A-serie is ugly..had the old a serie..great machine best screens available...it got stolen in France. If vista/xp and osx/panther all run on a macbook pro...then it is the best choice i gues...if you dont care spending a little more money for design.

Sorry Christiaan but I have to correct you

This is what Apple reports on his site :
http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

Processor and memory

* 1.83GHz or 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
* 4MB shared L2 cache running at full processor speed on MacBook with 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
* 2MB shared L2 cache running at full processor speed on MacBook with 1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
* 667MHz frontside bus
* 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-5300; two SO-DIMM slots support up to 2GB
o 1GB (two 512MB SO-DIMMs) in 2.0GHz models
o 512MB (two 256MB SO-DIMMs) in 1.83GHz model

And this is what Intel reports for Laptop specs
http://www.intel.com/products/processor ... ations.htm

T7600 4 MB L2 2.33 GHz 667 MHz
T7400 4 MB L2 2.16 GHz 667 MHz
T7200 4 MB L2 2 GHz 667 MHz
T5600 2 MB L2 1.83 GHz 667 MHz
T5500 2 MB L2 1.66 GHz 667 MHz

T5500 lacks virtualization technology.

So Black MacBook is a T7200 or if not has the same specs. ...
One of the reason why Ableton Performance are best on a 1.66C2D lies in the way Apple has implementing cooling and speed step.
A MacBook C2D performance rarely touches 2.0Ghz when not needed unless you remove the kernel extension that controls throttling. During test my C2D MacBook was performing at 1.33 Ghz..... I did not repeat the test without the kernel extension but I have used the Mac without that. MacBook booted at 1.67 Ghz and then moved to 2.0Ghz. The fans were up all the time, so I moved back to 'as designed'. Even if I do not agree with Apple's behavior here I have to admit that making such a thin piece of hardware (CPU reaches 80 centigrades when under top performance) should take heat dissipation into consideration. However throttling extends battery life as Laptop intended use might suggest.
Here a review that states T7200 inside.
http://www.businessmobileasia.com/produ ... 20p,00.htm

If I had the money I would have bought a C2D MacBook Pro but I'm not a professional...an entry point of 1999 Euro was too much and I had to add 180 Euros for 2 GB memory...I think iMac at 1379 Euros already upgraded to 2GB RAM is the best value for money currently available. The MacBook 13 inch screen is not easy on the eyes if you're in the range of population that shows eyesight post 40 years old common problem.... I have to change my glasses when working on that, but I have to say that Zoom is superb and working in not-native resolution blurs the desktop only a little.

- Best
- Pasha

[ikke]

darkcatt,

IS OSX reliable and speedy on an Intel PC machine? And what about hardware drivers?

[Christiaan de Jong]

You are absolutely right! I called a mac store here in Holland today because i couldnt find the l2 level cache details on the website. The man said it was 2 mb for the black one too......now I know that is bullshit. Im glad. Wanted to buy the black macbook with 2 gb too. Now its back in the race again

I am considering the macbookpro 17" if they give me a discount. I love a big screen. I works great. If you are producing on the move it really helps. 13"is just a little to small. On the other hand..the 1000 Euro differnence would really let me buy a 23" screen on the side! Still not the same notebook;)

A tough decision...i was convinced to buy a vaio again untill i got the news that xp runs on a mac too now. And Vista?? Is is going to be able on a mac too. I suppose so...it schould not be different in terms of compatibility and the hardware is strong enough..

Thanx for clearing it up!

Gr,

Chris

[Pasha]

darkcatt,

IS OSX reliable and speedy on an Intel PC machine? And what about hardware drivers?

http://www.insanelymac.com
http://www.osx86project.org
(due to IP law infringement site might be down)
Apple has tolerated this so far but the line between breaking the IP law and 'scientific' usage is very thin.

No drivers. Your only chance is to get a PC with a similar specs than a MacBook.
There are some. I and a friend recently did it installing Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.7 on a Amilo 1536. FW still not working. The FW chips that OEM manufacturer use on their hardware are low cost chips (remember that no PC laptop except some Acer has a 6-pin FW port) that are not compatible with Darwin. I work in IT so I'm happy to test new thing, Mac OS X is what it is because it runs on well known hardware. PC Manufacturers buy what's available on the market and rely on Windows to have drivers or write some lousy ones on their own. That's why you might run into compatibility problems with Windows. It's not Windows to be blamed. It's all the crappy hardware that's used to lower price and get into our budgets...Now the Amilo
runs XP Media Center, as it was supposed to run from the beginning. It was fun, but common law of business prohibits paying less and having more.

It's just like Linux in the old days.... You would assemble a Desktop buying only hardware known to work. Linux today has partially solved his problems but Laptops, especially lower priced ones are a mixed bag of chips that not always work. In these circumstances Windows is doing good...unless you hit that button or connect that external device....

Darwin is BSD so you can compile your own driver or write what you need and share it with the community but the problem is that some FW chips are custom made chips... so specs are difficult to find.
Laptop specs are always less detailed when come to USB and FW chips.
Nowadays you can be sure that USB works because it is 'embedded' into Intel chipsets, while FW is not standard Intel....

I love Linux, but when making music I want to switch my laptop on and enjoy. Linux in my opinion, is not ready as a DAW system even if some software like Ardour (http://ardour.org/ tar ball for OSX available) is available together with some Cubase clones and some original project.
It needs maintenance and a lot of time, especially to remain updated.
However, I think Linux is ready for the desktop usage.
That's why I moved to a Mac for Music, while I still have a dual boot machine
with Linux and XP on it.

- Best
- Pasha

[ikke]

thank you but what about the speed and reliability? memory usage? and what about my soundcard driver? and can you run normal osx apps then?
the links you provided dont seem to work
"The page cannot be displayed
Explanation: The Web server connection was closed.
"

[rikhyray]

Lots of interesting information here.
Considering how frequently we have to upgrade, also due to software development, like now with Live optimised for C2D I am not keen to spend 2000 Euro every year, or year and half. There is no way to get fully functional Mac (for my purpose which is having rewired video for live show). Same with Sony Vaio, good models - SZ are even more expensive then MBP. So what is left ? Asus, Samsung or Toshiba the rest are so poorly build that they wont survive touring.
Pasha, you did so much research i would appreciate your advice. Get any of the above mendion trio, C2D 2.0 or 1.66 CoreDue Vaio (can get one for under 1200) . Advantage of that Vaio SZ is the built quality ( the carbon fibre model) the components which are sure thing- FW chip etc. My stage setup changed recently, not that much CPU dependent it is not just notebook with controllers, except for DJ gigs, I use mostly hardware Clavia G2, Evolver, Revolution and MPC. Live is mostly high quality percussion and vocal samples/loops and 303 emulator and rewired Arkaos, or if there is separate VJ then I rewire Reason for some live looping.
I almost decided to get C2D 2.0 or better but after reading this thread I am not so sure if getting worse build ( and bloody ugly) faster CPU notebook is all that good idea.

[Pasha]

thank you but what about the speed and reliability? memory usage? and what about my soundcard driver? and can you run normal osx apps then?
the links you provided dont seem to work
"The page cannot be displayed
Explanation: The Web server connection was closed.
"

The site is up now.
Have a good read.
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index ... Project.3F
Performance wise the 'Hackintosh' we setup, an Amilo P 1536
was similar to this test I made on a Mac Mini:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=
FW was an issue,USB was working, while dual screen was not (we had to build a special VGA dongle to recover after boot...) You can run any Mac OS X app, including PPC ones with rosetta.

considering the Amilo had a T5500 Cpu and the Mac mini is only a Dual Core we lost something performance wise.

Anyway, I would not go for a Hackintosh for Music. Me and my friend are Technology enthusiastics so we like to test things like that and Linux booting from a USB Key or complex VMWare setups. It's part of our profession.
It took us 10 days to have Mac OS X dual booting on the Amilo and a lot of effort...and nights...especially to make Audio work, but it has been exciting like installing Linux on a Laptop three years ago...
I can't know if you'll find appropriate drivers for your hardware better take a look at the site I pointed you to. Personally I have to warn you here. One thing is running Linux that's free and GPLed while running OS X on an hardware that was not meant for the purpose it's near some law infringement and Apple has the right to sue the project. Apple did not Open Sourced Mac OS X.
It has been useful to have it running for a couple of weeks. We tested all sort of programs (not only music) and plug ins, because at the Apple store you cannot stain a machine by installing your software, drivers and the like. So it has been a big test bed. The outcome as you know, was that I bought a MacBook.
When running XP the machine showed comparable performance while with Vista RC2 was sluggish, probably due to the lack of dedicated video card. Now the Amilo has returned to his original OS : XP MCE.
Thanks to this I had a better understanding of Mac OS X, its compatibility with an Internet content that is more and more biased towards Microsoft proprietary formats and got in touch with the active Mac Open Source community: http://www.opensourcemac.org/
A Laptop for me is not only for Music, must fulfill all my computing needs.
a 1000 Euro laptop with a C2D T5500 1.66 Ghz can double the performance of a three years old P4 l2.6GHz like I own. Buying a PC (Mac or Win) means having support for patches and the like. I'll focus on making music, not nanny my OS. I already own Linux for that. I decided to own a Mac but I could have avoided buying it. I liked the idea of an OS written for a specific hardware platform with known components, like an appliance.
Until now I was right. I'm happy. . If time will prove me wrong I'll go back.
Good Luck!

- Best
- Pasha