anyone for war? pc notebook or c2d macbook/macbookpro? GO!

[Pasha]

Lots of interesting information here.
Considering how frequently we have to upgrade, also due to software development, like now with Live optimised for C2D I am not keen to spend 2000 Euro every year, or year and half. There is no way to get fully functional Mac (for my purpose which is having rewired video for live show). Same with Sony Vaio, good models - SZ are even more expensive then MBP. So what is left ? Asus, Samsung or Toshiba the rest are so poorly build that they wont survive touring.
Pasha, you did so much research i would appreciate your advice. Get any of the above mendion trio, C2D 2.0 or 1.66 CoreDue Vaio (can get one for under 1200) . Advantage of that Vaio SZ is the built quality ( the carbon fibre model) the components which are sure thing- FW chip etc. My stage setup changed recently, not that much CPU dependent it is not just notebook with controllers, except for DJ gigs, I use mostly hardware Clavia G2, Evolver, Revolution and MPC. Live is mostly high quality percussion and vocal samples/loops and 303 emulator and rewired Arkaos, or if there is separate VJ then I rewire Reason for some live looping.
I almost decided to get C2D 2.0 or better but after reading this thread I am not so sure if getting worse build ( and bloody ugly) faster CPU notebook is all that good idea.

Quite difficult to answer here.

John Ruskin, 1819-1900 Author, Influential Critic, Philospher

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much you lose a little money, that is all.
When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything,
because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.
The common law of business prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run.
And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

Technology update speed offers no protection. Always buyversion 2 of new technology, buy what you need not what they impose to you to buy.
Macs are expensive but except for version 1 you can expect good performance and service (they're still replacing lousy iBook boards at no cost).
Provided that it's up to you to be sure that your needed software exists on Windows XP, Mac OS X and the timing that it will be available on Vista, I'd consider the following:

1. Vista is new. There's a difference between Vista Capable and Vista Premium Ready hardware. http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16811/W ... quirements
2. Opposite to XP Microsoft does not provide a software compatibility list for VISTA
3. Mac OS X is on the eve of a 64bit jump on Intel, but Tiger is stable and will get 10.4.9 upgrade soon.
4. Apple gets Intel technology first
5. Things are changing fast
6. XP will be around and supported until 2008 at least. http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16801/V ... ailability

You can wait a little more, see the specs the Abes will provide for Live6 and Vista and see what happens to the software you need, In the meantime you can wait with your hardware if it's enough or go shop a 1200 Euro range C2D Laptop, if you don't want go Apple.
A MacBook Pro offers expansion Card and the future is external SATA II disks attached directly to the SATA bus ... while a MacBook offers traditional expansion capability via 2 USB ports and a FW port.
I took my chance and bought a MacBook, for it's enough for my needs and a MacBook Pro was out of budget. As a developer, developing for a platform were all is known in advance its better than developing generic code that will be deployed on 'unknown' hardware.

Hope it helps,
If not I'm happy to go on.

- Best
- Pasha

[Pasha]

Could someone please, please, and in very romper roomish lingo, explain what I'll lose by purchasing a macbook over a macbook pro. Is the speed drop significant? If not, and I'm not using the 'puter to play games, why else would you spend the cash on the pro machine. Thanks.

It's quite simple.
Benchmarks indicate that MacBook is not so slower than MacBook Pro.
2.0 Ghz vs 2.16 Ghz it's an AU plug more, maybe a track more.
Updating the memory to 2GB (necessary to run Parallels or VmWare or in Memory plug-ins or Tracks - the RAM option in Live clips for example)
costs 180 euros on both models.
MacBook Pro has more screen real estate, a FW800 and a CardBus Expansion socket so expansion is key here.
On My MacBook, I'm running all from the internal disk (14 hard disk recorded tracks max) and works fine so far. I use the single FW for Audio, 1 USB for Mouse and 1 USB for MIDISPORT 2x2 or M-Audio Keystation when I want to work only with VSTi. This fills all my ports.... If I want more I can use the trackpad and spare 1 USB port for an Hard Drive or having MIDISPORT 2x2 and M-AUDIO Keystation together (so I spare one AC-DC Adapter..).
FW Hard Disk drive can be daisy chained with Audio Interfaces but I do not own a FW Hard Drive so I cannot say how it goes. With the new soon-to-arrive GigaBit Ethernet Hard drives this is less than a problem, you can run up to 125MB/sec instead of 40MB/sec. New eSATA drives are coming so a CardBus would be good... but you can't match technology innovation speed. http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16784/e ... -to-Arrive

Like someone said on this forum, buy what you really need now. Do not wait or you'll wait forever. There will always be something new.
I have chosen the MacBook for Budget limitations. The White one at 1499 after 2GB exansion is even better if you are ok with 80GB HDD.

Hope this helps

- Best
- Pasha

[shtreimel]

Very helpful. Thanks.

[rikhyray]

Thanks Pasha, I am under impression yourself not really following Ruskin getting MB instead of MBP. The absence of proper graphic card affects not only video apps, then the build quality, though if you are not performer it wont apply. Apple calls Pro pro for reason, I not bashing Apple here, contrary, the company says it very clearly what is aimed at professional market and what at general user, consumer. Ruskins idea definitely applies here.
In my case I dropped the mac idea for a while ( since Mac for my needs would be at least 2500 Euro), I still wonder if it would be worth to get the 1,66 CoreDuo Vaio because of the superb build quality or the difference is so much that 2.0 C2D is absolutely minimum to take advantage of Duo, meaning compromising the bulid quality which would mean being extra careful while using. Will appreciate your opinion.

[huffcw]

If you haven't yet, you should consider a Dell business-class laptop (such as a D620). There are a number of advantages:

1. Price is reasonable for specs through Dell Small Business
2. Even though they are not the most attractive machines available, the build quality is excellent - and road ready.
3. You can add a second internal hard drive in place of the CD-ROM - improving performance drastically
4. There is a docking station available (reasonable price through eBay) that allows you to use PCI cards with them - I use it with a Creamware Scope DSP system and it works great
5. A high-resolution screen is available that gets you more screen real estate

I have considered a MacBook Pro, but I cannot live without some of the advantages above that my Dell offers.

[rikhyray]

I looked but didnt see any lightweight model with real graphic card. Dell well built? Are you serious ? Is it some special model, some pro line? All I have ever seen wwere horrible, could bend and twist them and Dell are the ugliest looking of them all (i could get someone to airbrush it though). Except for overpriced RAM ( but all companies cheat on it) price was attractive indeed.

[Pasha]

I looked but didnt see any lightweight model with real graphic card. Dell well built? Are you serious ? Is it some special model, some pro line? All I have ever seen wwere horrible, could bend and twist them and Dell are the ugliest looking of them all (i could get someone to airbrush it though). Except for overpriced RAM ( but all companies cheat on it) price was attractive indeed.

We have Dells for it's a standard in my company (I do not own a company, I work for them, otherwise standard would be different.. )
We use D 620.
They seem well built but we use it for Business reason. We travel a lot
so HDD will eventually fail before three years time.
For the intended usage (Business) D 620 is a good machine.
You can configure with 2GB 533 Mhz RAM, T7400 C2D 2.0Ghz, 120 GB SATA HDD, NVidia graphic Card for 1625 Euros. If you add 667 Mhz RAM the price jumps to 2233 Euros. My Macbook with 2GB RAM cost me 1699 Euros. If you start from the 999 Euros model (T5500 C2D 1,66 Ghz, 60GB SATA HDD 1GB RAM @ 667 Mhz, G950 graphics) and do a similar MacBook with 2GB RAM configuration you reach 1912 Euros.

- Best
- Pasha

[Pasha]

Thanks Pasha, I am under impression yourself not really following Ruskin getting MB instead of MBP. The absence of proper graphic card affects not only video apps, then the build quality, though if you are not performer it wont apply. Apple calls Pro pro for reason, I not bashing Apple here, contrary, the company says it very clearly what is aimed at professional market and what at general user, consumer. Ruskins idea definitely applies here.
In my case I dropped the mac idea for a while ( since Mac for my needs would be at least 2500 Euro), I still wonder if it would be worth to get the 1,66 CoreDuo Vaio because of the superb build quality or the difference is so much that 2.0 C2D is absolutely minimum to take advantage of Duo, meaning compromising the bulid quality which would mean being extra careful while using. Will appreciate your opinion.

You're right. Should you follow Ruskin you have to always buy the top model.
Mitigating a little Ruskin's good idea I have chosen what was best for me.
I do not need a 3D accelerated card to edit clips in Live.
I can easily live with 64MB VRAM shared with my memory.
Sony is known to use uncommon hardware, custom chips.
They are more keen to DRM than any other (they own Music and Video amrket contents)
and with VISTA giving the eye to RIAA and MIAA this could become even worse.
Look at my reply about Dell prices, they are not so bad machines.
Nobody is giving you gifts for nothing. Quality has a cost. Always.
I'd prefer paying for the things inside that on the outside or design.
I'm not telling Mac quality is superior! I got a Mac because of Mac OS X.
Next generation OS will be 64bit, be it Apple or Microsoft.
I'd jump on a 64bit platform (BTW I have done it)
There's another golden rule that is: stay back one generation and you'll get the most stable things for a reasonable price. You can buy a Core Duo for less than some months ago when first they came out. The same will apply to C2D in a couple of months or more. By doing so you will pay less but you will pay a little performance penalty.
Buy what you are contemporary with. The best that you can afford that does the job for you.
I was lucky I had the occasion to have the 'Hackintosh' setup to test. I learned what was best for me and I decided MacBook. You know what? I sometimes miss a lack of 3d dedicated card into my MacBook and the ghost of Ruskin appears in the corner of my room laughing...
I sometimes use a 3d App named Blender for fun and it runs bad on my MacBook. Anyway, sometimes is not enough to justify 500 Euros more. I would have spent 2200 Euros for the MacBook Pro @ 2.16 Mhz. after a 2GB RAM expansion. With 500 Euros I can buy a lot of stuff.
My MacBook is for Music, not for 3D Graphics. An iMac 17" 2GB RAM with a 7200 RPM HDD costs you 1379 Euros. A 7200 RPM drive makes a difference.
If you travel a lot you have to take care of your equipment, well built means crash proof.
No laptop is crash proof if it takes a hit well, goodbye, it does not matter if it's a Sony or another brand. Invest in a good flight case. Spread your money all over the best you can get in each compartment. Some compromises will always be necessary.

- Hope it helps
- Best
- Pasha

[rikhyray]

I take good care of my notebooks, have good bag etc but .... once I didnt take it because of promoting Ableton ( a film about me and my work) so I wanted to do them a favour- wearing T shirt, bag etc) So i took it in the bag Abes gave me. After whole day of shooting, lots of outside in heat so after last shoot i let the bag be loaded ( before i kept it all the time on my lap) then open the van door... the bag falls from 3feet directly on concrete, to make it worse the Ableton bag is padded but does no zip and like usually, worst scenarios Vaio hit with exposed corner directly. I thought it is the end of it, wrong, there is small scratch on that corner and 6 months later everything works perfectly. BTW It is the corner where the HD is, another evidence that Hitachi 7k are the best.
While most of notebooks get loose with time all the Vaios I had stay tight forever.( anyone reading it beware it applies to better models, cheap Sonys are same shit like anything else).
As far as music instruments go, Ruskins ideas apply, just like in cooking or perfume composing you need the best to make the best. However for me notebook is not instrument in itself, does not create sounds, it is only to capture them. 3000 $ MBP will not make music sound better, just that the chances are better it wont add "unwanted effects" stuttering, crackling or whatever.

[huffcw]

I have tried a Macbook and and Dell side by side (both with 1.8ghz Core 2 Duo processors and 1GB RAM) - and the Dell outperforms the Macbook when running Ableton (e.g., more track counts, soft synths, etc.).

One thing to keep in mind is that I did customize and optimize my Dell. Installed two 7200rpm drives, cleaned up Windows XP, etc.

I believe it may be using two internal hard drives (one dedicated to writing audio) on the Dell that is contriubting most to the performance (and unfortunately this is not possible with the Macbook). The other factor may be the use of a PCI card with the Dell - compared to having to use a Firewire or USB audio interface with the Mac.

While not all Dell's are built the same, the newer ones seem to have a noticable improvement in build quality (especially the business class ones that are meant to take abuse from travel). The build quality on the Dell D620 is just as solid as the Macbook - and actually may even have more sock asorbtion considering the case design. The Macbooks are very thin - but that doesn't leave much possibility for shock absorbtion. Also, I used a Dell D600 for a number of years without any issues at all - not one crash, not one hardware failure - nothing! It even got dropped off a counter once and survived.

I have tried laptops made by HP, Sony and Toshiba - and had problems with every one of them. The most solid laptops I have tried are Dell and Macs. I really do like the Macbooks, but without being able to install a second internal drive or use a CardBus or PCI card, the Macbook is severaly dissadvantaged performance wise compared to my Dell.

[Machinesworking]

I really do like the Macbooks, but without being able to install a second internal drive or use a CardBus or PCI card, the Macbook is severaly dissadvantaged performance wise compared to my Dell.

http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/

[huffcw]

I really do like the Macbooks, but without being able to install a second internal drive or use a CardBus or PCI card, the Macbook is severaly dissadvantaged performance wise compared to my Dell.

http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/

That would take care of one issue - but the price is outrageous

[Pasha]

I really do like the Macbooks, but without being able to install a second internal drive or use a CardBus or PCI card, the Macbook is severaly dissadvantaged performance wise compared to my Dell.

http://www.mcetech.com/optibay/

Good to know!
What about a Lacie GigaBit Ethernet Drive? A 320 GB will cost you 269 Euros and is capable of 1000 MBits/sec or 125 MB/sec. Only drawback is you need a router in the middle, you cannot attach the drive directly to your Ethernet port. Used with Wi-Fi might limit it to 54 MBit/sec or about 60 MB/sec. What do you think of Ethernet drives? Can they be suitable for Music or Hard Disk Streaming? The specs say that they are certified for UPnPTM AV to stream multimedia content to AV interfaces.
However how this MacBook add-on complies with warranty and/or AppleCare? Will it be voided?

- Best
- Pasha

[Pasha]

I take good care of my notebooks, have good bag etc but .... once I didnt take it because of promoting Ableton ( a film about me and my work) so I wanted to do them a favour- wearing T shirt, bag etc) So i took it in the bag Abes gave me. After whole day of shooting, lots of outside in heat so after last shoot i let the bag be loaded ( before i kept it all the time on my lap) then open the van door... the bag falls from 3feet directly on concrete, to make it worse the Ableton bag is padded but does no zip and like usually, worst scenarios Vaio hit with exposed corner directly. I thought it is the end of it, wrong, there is small scratch on that corner and 6 months later everything works perfectly. BTW It is the corner where the HD is, another evidence that Hitachi 7k are the best.
While most of notebooks get loose with time all the Vaios I had stay tight forever.( anyone reading it beware it applies to better models, cheap Sonys are same shit like anything else).
As far as music instruments go, Ruskins ideas apply, just like in cooking or perfume composing you need the best to make the best. However for me notebook is not instrument in itself, does not create sounds, it is only to capture them. 3000 $ MBP will not make music sound better, just that the chances are better it wont add "unwanted effects" stuttering, crackling or whatever.

Sorry I focused only on the internals, I'm more a chipset guy than a case one.
Of course a well built case is very important.
Macs are thinner, but this means that they will absorb bumps in a worse manner.
Anyway the sudden motion sensor could save your drive from data loss.
I had used only Toshiba Tecra at work, and we change it every three years.
I travel a lot up and down the planes, up and down the trains and cars. My only complain
with Toshiba's is that their hard drives fail before I reach the 3rd year. The Hard Disks were made by IBM, but the feeling we have is 'Toshiba's will not carry you to the end of usage period', When not traveling the Laptops are up & running 8 to 10 hours a day and Disks are very stressed, so I can't say nothing apart that when you start hearing a subtle click after boot....it's time to backup quickly.........
Dells D600,D610,D620 have some problems too but I won't add nothing because I didn't have one. I cannot guarantee what other collegues do with their PCs...
3000 $ is too much for a Laptop, and so is 2500 $, but again it depends. If I were a pro I would have spent that money, because in that case I could have load that laptop as an asset and get fiscal benefits back, for example VAT will be vanished (you can subtract VAT from your purchases from VAT from your revenues). Unluckily I'm not a Pro, I do not own any company. That's one of the economical reasons why I chose a compromise and got a MacBook (I'll regret forever because I got the Black one and not the White one - 200 Euros more for 40GB Hard Disk Space - outrageous). The Apple Store told me that changing the Hard Disk would have voided warranty and if I would have to send MacBook to service I would have to put my 'original' drive in place or service won't accept it. Truth? Lies? Who knows? I went for the Black one. I do not regret the additional space, I regret the $$$ I had to spend to get it, about the price of 250GB Lacie Gigabit drive (219 Euros)!

[rikhyray]

I am musician so there is always musthave or like2have to buy but if I am to throw a grand I rather buy something I could live without but can have good use and fun with like say Little Phatty (I hate that name) compact mixer with motorised faders like Yamaha etc, etc then stupid bunch of wires that notebook is. Regatding taxes it is a bit of a problem with computer, according to German laws i can do it only once in 3 years. Germany is crazy this way, there is thick book specifying every item trumpet or piano, even depending if you teach, perform etc. This time I will say that the new one is for the video otherwise I cant get tax relief for a computer till 2008.
Good synth, mic, headphone will serve for years if not decades, any notebook after 4 years is just junk that probably soon we will have to pay to dispose.
So since it seems I can get somthing that can work for me exactly same way for 1000 Euro less I will go for it, and maybe even get that bloody Phatty.
Honestly I am not interested in females who would feel uncontrioable attraction to me if I sit in Starbucks with most expensive Mac ever. I get better coffee by Italians and if I work , I work, in a park ,coffee shop or studio I dont want no bitches to bother me anyway.
I looked at the Dell site but do not find any 12,13 or 14 notebook with real graphic card.