Abeton can invest in a New York Office but no subgroups

rikhyray · Post by **rikhyray** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:51 pm

I like Ableton and the people, lots of them consider personal friends,like the ideas, philosophy but..........though it comes by coincidence I didnt upgrade till now, wanted to do on weekend it was released but it didnt work, then was busy and now I actually see no point. there is nothing that would really add to what I could use Live for, Live instruments are useless for me, never ever use rubbish sounding Simpler, Impulse yes but in very specific way trying to turn its shortcoming to virtue. Operator, Sampler , new instruments... sorry there are hundreds of better VSTs to choose. I would pay not just 100 but 200 for fixing just
1. the midi, making it usable for people with sense of rhythm and time and
2. the grouping.
I dont feel like upgrading not because of the money, but to avoid feeling pissed off that nothing of real use was added.
i still use Live for quick jobs, remixes, earning some money DJing, but growing as composer, producer started to be limited since Live does not really grow in past 2 years. Tom me 3>4 was the last serious update.
I would rather pay monthly, and let them work in peace instead of being under marketing pressure to release some flashy but useless intruments and features.
And .....I can still use edit button!

snowtires · Post by **snowtires** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:06 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Daw people....

It's Ableton Live. Not Ableton studio......
If i wanted cubase, I would have bought it.

You want Ableton to stop making "useless" instruments.
I want them to stop adding offline processing, because thats not "Live".

There are over 100 000 Live users, try to get them to all agree....
We cant even do it with the 20-odd people in this thread.

if the abes didn't want people to bitch about the daw aspect of their program, they shouldn't have included it. the fact that it's in there at all completely negates the 'it's ableton live, not ableton studio' argument. obviously the abes want this program to be more than just a live tool and they have marketed it as such. but if they're going to have the arrangment mode in there at all, they need to seriously step up their game because right now it's hurting

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Hi back to whinge (so fu*, do I care ? No),
DAW is what ableton is no.1
Some of us are competent with computers (Yeah me and all the other poor sods who report the bugs that are missed by those with perfect computers and bigger brains

). That stuff about "Oh please I've been using Live without crashes, it works fine here, you lot don't know how to set up your computer, blah blah" doesn't wash with me. I'm using Live for making sounds and music but I still find bugs and report... whatever. There are loads of bugs which don't crash Live, still bugs though. Still... out of sight out of mind, thats the way to do it innit. I could just be quiet let problems go unnoticed or report and face exile from the community ... the latter is fine with me.
So even though this might sound "not nice" thats not my intention, I like using ableton and I hope it continues to improve (I'll ditch everything that becomes redundant at that time), I feel theres always room for improvement.
I'm thankful that we can all discuss these things and I'm thankful that Ableton listen to us all (when they listen to us). I'll always try to stay objective.
Nice one. Bye Bye.

vanceg · Post by **vanceg** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:38 pm

Wow - I rarely read the Ableton Forums but I must say that I'm baffled at this thread. Almost didn't respond at all due to the obvious trolling, silly, absurd nature of the initial post. But...

I can hardly imagine any possible reason that Ableton would have for 'holding back' features. it seems that many people (including many of you in this discussion thus far) really don't have a grasp on how many different ways that Live is used.

Ableton (like any successful software company) gets an AMAZING number of feature requests. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - Without exception, is "Absolutely essential" to someone and is "completely useless and a total waste of time" to someone else. EVERYONE will feel that there is some feature that HAS to be added to make Live work "properly" or some bug that "has to be fixed or the product is useless". Well, guess what - to someone else in this community it would be a total waste of time and money for Ableton to concentrate on that feature.

Get out some - out of your normal circle of friends - outside those areas where people make music similar to yours. There are people who use Live for ALL SORTS of applications, and Ableton needs to pay attention to all of them and decide what is best for the product and company as a whole.

Sorry, but the way you work is not the way I work and neither of us is the center of the damn universe.

Personally, I couldn't care less about MIDI sequencing in Live. And the crossfader? What would I EVER want that for? Nothing. Totally useless to me. Sub groups? Also worthless to me.

Yet it's clear to me that for many people, these features are essential.

The idea that nothing useful has been added in the last versions of Live is silly. It may be that nothing useful to YOU has been added, no problem. I'd suggest that you don't upgrade.

I've been in the audio software business for over 15 years now and I must say that I am continually impressed by how very well I think Ableton does at making those VERY TOUGH decisions as to which features to include and which features to leave out of any particular update. There are many, many factors to consider including: the number of developers that are available to you during any development cycle, the duration of that development cycle, which developers are already committed to working on other features, which features need to be implemented before other (related) features can be started, and, INDEED, which features are going to bring in the most upgrade customers.

Stop thinking that the way you want to work is THE way to work in Live. Sorry, it just ain't that way. And the idea that Ableton is holding back features just to get people to have to spend unnecessary money on upgrades is bizarrely ignorant of the realities of software development.

My 7 cents.

Vance

(Full disclosure - I do not work for Ableton but I have contracted with them briefly for non software development tasks.... very minor stuff. See you at NAMM!)

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:55 pm

vanceg wrote:Wow - I rarely read the Ableton Forums but I must say that I'm baffled at this thread.

I get baffled by some posts too, its not just the threads. No matter how clear you write it, it still gets taken the wrong way. "Some of you don't know nothing about your computer", "some of you don't use Live properly", "some of you shave your balls", "some of you suck coc*", "some of you are just stupid", "some of you wanna say something and I disagree, so I dislike you too", etc.
Whatever. Keep on, keep on assuming.
I'm personally more baffled at the attitude against criticism, feature requesting, etc than I am baffled by this thread.
Bye.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:37 pm

Vance, you imply that you can relate to us enough to know that we have a limited view of live and
all of us need to get out more. But, you use live in the most limited of ways. ie No midi sequencing or DJing.

Are you a musician ?

What do you use live for ?

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:50 pm

knotkranky wrote:Vance, you imply that you can relate to us enough to know that we have a limited view of live and
all of us need to get out more. But, you use live in the most limited of ways. ie No midi sequencing or DJing.

Are you a musician ?

What do you use live for ?

his way of using Live is as valid as yours..
come on dude; your private wishlist and other grief is not the center of the universe..

why don't you just do some proper commenting on his post instead of asking if he's a musician..
doesn't matter if he is or not; he just wrote the final conclusion to this thread..
hope you recognize it..

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:57 pm

If you say so.

Cheers

rikhyray · Post by **rikhyray** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:23 am

Poster wrote:
knotkranky wrote:Vance, you imply that you can relate to us enough to know that we have a limited view of live and
all of us need to get out more. But, you use live in the most limited of ways. ie No midi sequencing or DJing.

Are you a musician ?

What do you use live for ?
his way of using Live is as valid as yours..
come on dude; your private wishlist and other grief is not the center of the universe..

why don't you just do some proper commenting on his post instead of asking if he's a musician..
doesn't matter if he is or not; he just wrote the final conclusion to this thread..
hope you recognize it..

Of course he question if the man is a musician because his post sound like of a lawyer or a salesman.
I am user here and I dont really care how tough it is the life of marketing department and they "hard" decisions, you think professional musicians life is not hard ?
I dont like midi, but there is no replacemant to it as yet and it is integral part of digital music production for past 30 years and I have to live with it and use it as iz is, like anyone involved in music productions.
If you dont care for midi buy Ipod or Nintendo, use Live as wallpaper. So no insulting anyone but in context of elaborate "marketing man" like post the question makes sense.

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:38 am

rikhyray wrote:
Poster wrote:
knotkranky wrote:Vance, you imply that you can relate to us enough to know that we have a limited view of live and
all of us need to get out more. But, you use live in the most limited of ways. ie No midi sequencing or DJing.

Are you a musician ?

What do you use live for ?
his way of using Live is as valid as yours..
come on dude; your private wishlist and other grief is not the center of the universe..

why don't you just do some proper commenting on his post instead of asking if he's a musician..
doesn't matter if he is or not; he just wrote the final conclusion to this thread..
hope you recognize it..
Of course he question if the man is a musician because his post sound like of a lawyer or a salesman.
I am user here and I dont really care how tough it is the life of marketing department and they "hard" decisions, you think professional musicians life is not hard ?
I dont like midi, but there is no replacemant to it as yet and it is integral part of digital music production for past 30 years and I have to live with it and use it as iz is, like anyone involved in music productions.
If you dont care for midi buy Ipod or Nintendo, use Live as wallpaper. So no insulting anyone but in context of elaborate "marketing man" like post the question makes sense.

doesn't matter if he sounds like a salesman..
salesmen do music as well..

point I was trying to make is that his main comment was that we all use Live in a different way..
that's an absolute statement and people are ignoring this while they know he's so right..

requesting video is as valid as the stupid slicer as valid as absolute midi recording in session as valid as etc etc..

but some peeps in this thread are trying to put their private wishlist in center of the Live universe by dragging in all kinds of arguments that are totally out of context..

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:47 am

But don't you see, that is the fall out from abe's position.

We are all going to jocky for position and fight for influence for the next thing.

So I pitch; If one is not a professional music maker, then I say they should have less of a voice and roll with what the pro's want. The newbs will love it just fine.

What is abelton's position? Really, what the hell is it ?

The worlds largest master at nothing swiss software knife or ......?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:02 am

MERCYPLEASE YOU LITTLE FUCKER I HOPE YOU'RE LAUGHING YOUR ASS OFF!!

WELL DONE. GOLF CLAP!!!

This was much more effective than just gettting b0unce to race you to 100 posts in a day or flooding the front page.

Good show, pip pip and all that.

DIAF

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:03 am

knotkranky wrote:But don't you see, that is the fall out from abe's position.

We are all going to jocky for position and fight for influence for the next thing.

So I pitch; If one is not a professional music maker, then I say they should have less of a voice and roll with what the pro's want. The newbs will love it just fine.

What is abelton's position? Really, what the hell is it ?

but you also know that fighting for pole position in this case is lost energy..
the abes don't give any clues about what the next thing will be..

I think in the end it doesn't really matter if you're a pro or not..
a customer is a customer..
I guess sometimes it's just about plain request counts mixed with THE agenda..

but you're right that 'pro's' (hate that word) happen to have a somewhat better perspective on the do's and don't's..

vanceg · Post by **vanceg** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:26 am

knotkranky wrote:Vance, you imply that you can relate to us enough to know that we have a limited view of live and
all of us need to get out more. But, you use live in the most limited of ways. ie No midi sequencing or DJing.

Are you a musician ?

What do you use live for ?

Oh nononno1 I'm so sorry - I didn't mean to imply that the way you all use Live is not valid! Heck no! Sorry - Sometimes I'm not as clear in writing as I should be. I have had quite a number of years professional experience watching people use audio programs and figuring out features that might be useful for them and I SURELY see the value in using Live as a MIDI sequence and for DJing!

What I was saying is that each of us has a set of features we consider essential becasue of the way we work. SOME (by no means all) of the posts in this thread seemed to indicate that the authors didn't really recognize that there are a WIDE range of legitimate ways to use a tool like Live and that a feature that seems ESSENTIAL to one of us may be totally useless to another.

That's all. I just thought I'd re-remind others of this often easy to forget fact.

I am, indeed, a musician..... and a systems designer. Live is the 'hub' of my live performance rig and it's also my main DAW.

That said, Being a musician is not my primary income - System design, audio engineering, sound design and consulting are. I don't think that the fact that I don't make much money at being a musician should eliminate the validity of my point.

I use Live for:
- Environment in which to process, loop and mix my guitar (this is my primary use for it)
- DAW (it is my primary work environment now)
- Triggering audio cues for live events such as theater
- Quick and easy multitrack recorder.
- Multichannel playback engine
- A few other misc uses

No, I'm not a sales person or a marketing guy....but I have had to deal with quite a number of them and I'm trying not to take offence at folks saying I sound like one

edit - Damn - good thing I'm not a proofreader, I'd starve!

vanceg · Post by **vanceg** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:46 am

Poster wrote:
knotkranky wrote:Vance, you imply that you can relate to us enough to know that we have a limited view of live and
all of us need to get out more. But, you use live in the most limited of ways. ie No midi sequencing or DJing.

Are you a musician ?

What do you use live for ?

Do I have to use a crossfader feature in Live to DJ with it? I'd question that assumption. Before the xfader existed I assigned MIDI control to faders and used a MIDI fader (a hacked up Vestax DJ mixer with a MIDI output on the crossfader) to crossfade between channels and that still works like a charm for me...so I don't need the xfader even if/when I do DJ with Live.... which is, admittedly, quite rare.

I don't think that I use Live in a limited way at all!
I loop with it.
I edit with it.
I trigger audio loops and long tracks with it.
I route to 16 seperate Aux send based effects with it.
I route to 8 channels of external effects with it.
I use clip automation extensively.
I use track automation quite a lot.
I record with it.
I sync it to external devices and sync devices to it.
and on and on. I use Live more than any other piece of software on my computer other than Mail and Firefox....Every single day almost without exception for the last several years.
But I just use it differently than you do. Or you. Or you over there.