Abletons Sound Quality

mission · Post by **mission** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:44 am

leisuremuffin wrote:just checked, yep -3db in the center.

plus (from :Craig Anderton)

"Panning laws originated in the days of analog mixers. If there was a linear gain increase in one channel and a linear gain decrease in the other channel to change the stereo position, at the center position the sum of the two channels sounded louder than if the signal was panned full left or full right.

To compensate for this, it became common to use a logarithmic gain change response to drop the signal by ‑3dB RMS at the center. You could do this by using dual pots for panning with log/antilog tapers, but as those could be hard to find, you could do pretty much the same thing by adding tapering resistors to standard linear potentiometers. Thus, even though signals were being added together from the left and right channels, the apparent level was the same when centered because they had equal power."

also, i checked with a mono track, with stereo tracks it should just be balance rather than -3d at center. --->except it's not, still -3db in center for stereo track.

.lm.

hmm...

lamen terms: do i want to pan my mono mixer tracks hard left and hard right or keep them both in the center when replicating a stereo channel?

(am i even talking about the same thing?)

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:58 am

i don't know. I assume by "replicate a stereo track" you mean the method of working you described before. If so, i still advise against it as simply adding an unneeded pass of a/d conversion to the track coming from your daw.

but here are some questions:

what mixing board are you using?

where are you taking the output to send to your audio interface?

is it before or after the pan in your board's signal flow?

.lm.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:02 am

ehhh, actually it doesn't even matter. but you should be aware of the 3db drop in the center on your mixing board when setting input levels on it. for some boards (for instance the ever popular mackie), the solo(even when pfl) is post pan, so you should pan hard left or right when checking input level so that you're not actually 3db hotter than the meter says....

.lm.

rbmonosylabik · Post by **rbmonosylabik** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:12 am

Michael-SW wrote:
XPM wrote:make sure you mix down with the master fader at 0db and adjust the track faders for the mix rather than the master.
Huh? That should be totally irrelevant. The final output is the product of the individual track faders and the master fader. Everything is done in 32 bit floating point. Shouldn't matter at all where you put the gain unless you do something really extreme.

It's relevant when your mix is clipping but you don't notice because the master is below 0, thus bringing the output level below the clipping indicator.

register · Post by **register** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:22 am

Meef Chaloin wrote:
Bisco wrote:im pretty sure ive read that, and im sure Robert Henke came on & explained that it makes no difference whatsoever.

Was that just after Robert Henke said 'Let there be light!' and there was??? Geez

I think the fact that this has come up so many times says something. Even if warping is off, even if you're using decent plug ins, to me and many other I know, live sounds worse.

I thought when I bought live I'd get operator too... geez, it can sound really digital sometimes, the pure waveforms sounds like they introduce some very uncomplimentary harmonics.

I've completely given up on live as a production tool, though for performing its ideal... maybe that's why they called it live?!?

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:22 am

rbmonosylabik wrote: It's relevant when your mix is clipping but you don't notice because the master is below 0, thus bringing the output level below the clipping indicator.

naaah, digital summing bus doesn't work like that.

bump as loud as you want on individual tracks and then pull down the master fader. no clipping.

i still work with my master fader at 0, but that's just habit.

.lm.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:26 am

see, register has himself convinced, then he goes and tells some other uninformed people, and the cycle continues.

live has poor sound quality.

shit, if you believe the guy from velvet acid christ, lives midi grid doesn't go beyond 16th notes.

it doesn't matter that these things aren't true, there's always going to be someone who believes them.

.lm.

register · Post by **register** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:44 am

leisuremuffin wrote:see, register has himself convinced, then he goes and tells some other uninformed people, and the cycle continues.lm.

Was that just after I told you to all disobey Robert Henke and eat apples from the forbidden tree (whilst mixing in live)???

Geez

udp · Post by **udp** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:45 am

register wrote:
Meef Chaloin wrote:
Bisco wrote:im pretty sure ive read that, and im sure Robert Henke came on & explained that it makes no difference whatsoever.
Was that just after Robert Henke said 'Let there be light!' and there was??? Geez

I think the fact that this has come up so many times says something. Even if warping is off, even if you're using decent plug ins, to me and many other I know, live sounds worse.

I thought when I bought live I'd get operator too... geez, it can sound really digital sometimes, the pure waveforms sounds like they introduce some very uncomplimentary harmonics.

I've completely given up on live as a production tool, though for performing its ideal... maybe that's why they called it live?!?

Describe worse. I heard some absolutely stunning music produced in Live. I've prodiced what I would term pretty acceptable music in Live. I've also been using it since 1.5, so perhaps I've spent enough time with it to really learn it.

register · Post by **register** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:24 am

udp wrote:Describe worse.

to me, live sounds very dead. Highs don't sound exciting, a lows don't sound impactful. Nothing seems to have the movement and power that I've been able to achieve in other apps. The time stretching algorithm which many live users make use of, sounds very destructive, and creates many artefacts.
The time stretch is very flexible however, and its beat sync capabilities makes it suited to being used live.
The effects plugins also seem to somehow take life out of the source sounds. Operator sounds very brash or piercing in high frequencies...

...talking of operator, does anyone know if it oscillates selected waveforms within the synth, or if it uses sample waveforms?

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:00 am

that's all a bunch of bullshit. sorry.

.lm.

Thinktanx · Post by **Thinktanx** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:19 am

Sorry, register, but I find it strange to hear someone complaining about Operator sounding "really digital". It is a soft synth last time I checked, yeah? It is also somewhat modeled on other classic digital synths such as the Prophet VS and Wavestation. The Prophet VS was known for its aliasing, and that is exactly what many people love about its sound (see NIN for reference).

tylenol · Post by **tylenol** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:43 am

register wrote:I think the fact that this has come up so many times says something.

People (as groups) quite often become convinced of all sorts of crazy things...that doesn't make them true. Evidence is what you want if you want to pursue this line of thought. Anyone who wants to show that live sounds "worse" or even different is perfectly free to organize blind A/B tests and/or use phase cancellation (compensating for pan laws) to show that there is something to it (of course you'd also have to show what's been wrong with tarekith and others' tests)...but no one ever does in these threads.

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:08 pm

what i don't is why people don't just admit that (e.g.) they get better results working in logic (because of workflow, it's fx, whatever) than in live, rather than asserting that somehow live's sound is "different" and "worse" than other DAWs. little clips of digital audio obviously will be the same wherever you open them, so it can only be things like fx or mixing or warping that are affecting the sound. and those have nothing to do with live's underlying audio engine. (it's kind of like using a crappy boss pedal in a mix -- or mixing on a truly cheap mixer -- and then complaining that the problem is with the studer tape machine used to record the underlying material.)

udp · Post by **udp** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:03 pm

register wrote:
udp wrote:Describe worse.
to me, live sounds very dead. Highs don't sound exciting, a lows don't sound impactful. Nothing seems to have the movement and power that I've been able to achieve in other apps. The time stretching algorithm which many live users make use of, sounds very destructive, and creates many artefacts.
The time stretch is very flexible however, and its beat sync capabilities makes it suited to being used live.
The effects plugins also seem to somehow take life out of the source sounds. Operator sounds very brash or piercing in high frequencies...

...talking of operator, does anyone know if it oscillates selected waveforms within the synth, or if it uses sample waveforms?

You need to spend more time with Operator. You have complete control over aliasing within Operator. The filter is also useful. One thing I find helps add punch to Live's sound is SLIGHT compression on nearly every track. Take a look at your signal chains. The order of effects drastically changes the sound. Then again if some other software is working for you use it. I just want everyone reading this to understand that Live is deep and you get out of it what you put in, both figuratively and literally. You can't put crappy recordings in and expect Live to make it great.