Is "Call to Prayer" sample offensive?

jb61264 · Post by **jb61264** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:39 am

Meef Chaloin wrote:so was the sample used in the end or what?

aww..who cares?...it spawned another political debate between MBreqs and b0unce, that's what really matters

i posted earlier in this thread because I wanted to know what the "real" root of the original poster was...was he really afraid of religiously offending someone or was it more about being concerned of violent backlash and threats?

if it was the first case, i would like ask if he would have the same concern about using a sample of something similar from a Catholic mass or Jewish service...truth is, he probably wouldn't think twice about using something from either of these religions but he is obviously concerned about using something from Islam...why?

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:39 am

nihad wrote:
joshuajames wrote:the fact is that the vast majority of muslims (at least in the middle east) are largely uneducated and barely, if at all, literate.
thats just not true .. is it your guess or do you have some kind of source? my uncle used to work in lybia (as a surgent during the early eighties). he's also been doing a lot of lecturing in boston .. the level of education didn't differ that much, but the knowledge about the rest of the world did, in favour of people from the ME ..

seems like there is a large bunch of self proclaimed sociologists and theologists on this board that really should be taking time to perfect those beats instead ..

just a thought ..

i'm no wannabe, i know what i'm talking about.

this isn't the place for me to develop a framework of social hierarchy for you, but your dad's physician friends are hardly representatives for the arab street. in fact i'd be justified in assuming they are the exact same class of people who are both sucking on the tits of the west and the blood of the middle east.

and p.s. my beats are hot, they're hot as fuck, listen to them and tell me i'm wrong.

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:47 am

edge100 wrote:
I'll say it again, if oppression were the key, Tibetan Buddists, sub-Saharan Africans, and the US intercity poor would be the ultimate terrorists. I'm not trying to say all muslims are terrorists; far from it. The vast, vast majority are not. But to argue that islam is a religion of peace, and then say "Behead those who say islam is a violent religion", leaves a certain disconnect.

This is not bigotry or racism; it's demanding that people behave according to the basic rules of civilization, and scale their beliefs with the available evidence.

you're wrong buddy you just made a claim that every society is equivalent. oppression is the key, it's the key to inflating the wealth of a few, and in the islamic (and especially the arab) world, this is put to great effect when combined with the dogma of islam and the practices of its clerics. did you know that most people don't actually read the koran? they just memorize "the key passages" that their imams and missionaries teach them like they would parrots. (this reminds me of how a lot of christian history went btw)

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:47 am

joshuajames wrote:
b0unce wrote: did you mis the 'hazard a guess' bit ?
oh and that's not a cop-out? you're as transparent as a sparrow's fart. i guess it was a hazard to guess huh? not that you put anything other than an insignificant and transient element of intellectual integrity on the line.

but since you asked, i was in the us army for four years, and it was sickening... i never said i was in combat either, but i've stood my ground surrounded by an angry gang of radical islamists in london who chanted for my death, i've been dragged through the streets by MPs in korea who didn't like what i stood for, i've been kicked out of classes by professors who thought my ideas were dangerous.

i expect that things in america will spiral out of control soon and i'm going to be there doing my best to help people figure it out. as for inciting violence i don't advocate it anymore than jesus, mlk, or ghandi. but those guys weren't indifferent either, they knew that their actions would force the powers of evil to send in their armies, they knew people would die for their ideas, their ideas were good, worth dying for. i'm still young, still learning, still trying to decide at what point i'm willing to step over the line forever and ride the wave rather than let it wash over me....

you need an attitude check mister, i hate to say i'd prefer not to explain everything to you, but i feel like it would be pointless unless you've got some life scars to show or at least a quality education to start with. so where are you coming from?

first of all - thats no cop out, I dont try to mince my words. I said hazard a guess, and thats exactly what I meant. In the same post I bigged up your true character (if your claims are true), without really knowing what type of person you were. However, I applauded you simultaniously....and you chose the agro response. Thats kool.

I guess I believe you were an american G.I, you speak with the same sense of self-importance as the rest I've spoken with. Also, I found your heated response amusing & enlightening....coming from this:

joshuajames wrote: islam does need a revolution/reformation, i don't know if now is the time, but SOMEDAY (barring a true apocalypse) a muslim will start a movement to upend the system we see tearing them apart today. i can only think that by pushing their buttons with offensive discourse will bring that day closer, even if it inspires more violence on their part.

Somehow, this statement, combined with your temper......I dunno, it just makes you look wacky to me.

as for not explaining shit....well, dont make audacious claims if you're not prepared to even make an itsy bitsy attempt to elaborate.

where i come from,,,well, I come from one of the places that knows what it is to endure an occupation

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:54 am

you called me a fat ass bigot. and from what i've read on the board so far people seem to think of you as someone who just spouts of things to get people pissed. your personal comments are completely out of line. it's a big and touchy topic, you seem to want to make it small and dualistic.

you're just wrong and it looks i was right in saying it wouldn't be worth the effort to try to sway your perspective.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:55 am

heh

yes, you got that much right.
please save your BS for yourself

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:01 am

btw since when does being a subject of occupation make your perspective MORE important than the occupiers? if anything, if you were halfway reasonable, i'd be suspect of your perspective just based on that fact, like those foaming throngs of dirty chanters in sadr city your mind would be clouded with injustice and personal pain. but it's clear your objective is just to pick a fight, i guess you got one man, cause quite honestly you're about to get your fingers broken in this thing (to use some internet symbolism). you said i don't explain anything? come on...what details support you calling people names? accusing them of bigotry? that's a serious accusation in my book mister and you need to go back and address that before we can go any further...

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:04 am

as for anyone else still interested in this thread, i'm sorry but i can't help it sometimes. this is just to interesting on a friday night to pass up...

jb61264 · Post by **jb61264** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:06 am

joshuajames wrote:as for anyone else still interested in this thread, i'm sorry but i can't help it sometimes. this is just to interesting on a friday night to pass up...

i added a thought about the original post above...i'd be interested to hear if the original person who posted would ask the same if he were using a sample of a Catholic mass or Jewish service...probably not.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:11 am

joshuajames wrote:btw since when does being a subject of occupation make your perspective MORE important than the occupiers? if anything, if you were halfway reasonable, i'd be suspect of your perspective just based on that fact, like those foaming throngs of dirty chanters in sadr city your mind would be clouded with injustice and personal pain. but it's clear your objective is just to pick a fight, i guess you got one man, cause quite honestly you're about to get your fingers broken in this thing (to use some internet symbolism). you said i don't explain anything? come on...what details support you calling people names? accusing them of bigotry? that's a serious accusation in my book mister and you need to go back and address that before we can go any further...

I thought you were done with me...?
I'm pretty much done with you....being a subject of occupation doesnt make my perspective MORE important than the occupiers. I didnt say that. You asked where I was coming from, I gave you a reply as brief as your claims. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the details that support me suggesting you might be a fat-ass bigot, well you said this:

joshuajames wrote: islam does need a revolution/reformation, i don't know if now is the time, but SOMEDAY (barring a true apocalypse) a muslim will start a movement to upend the system we see tearing them apart today. i can only think that by pushing their buttons with offensive discourse will bring that day closer, even if it inspires more violence on their part.

I took a guess you were part of the group of armchair people out there, who promote war - but send others out to do the fighting/mopping up.

I also said I was all for people like you, if your claims are true. Claims you made after my statement, btw.

If you cant accept that, well then, its no surprise - you're hardly the most diplomatic person I've ever had the misfortune of exchanging text with. but - you are a typical yank GI - so its looking more and more like you're telling the truth, way to go dude!

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:15 am

i added a thought about the original post above...i'd be interested to hear if the original person who posted would ask the same if he were using a sample of a Catholic mass or Jewish service...probably not.

you're right, probably not. they're just over it really

the jewish diaspora took care of any collective rage they might potentially develop over something like that.

and the european enlightenment pretty much ended (barring a few hold-outs like some americans) any sense of religious indignation at the ideas of others.

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:29 am

b0unce wrote: I also said I was all for people like you, if your claims are true. Claims you made after my statement, btw.

If you cant accept that, well then, its no surprise - you're hardly the most diplomatic person I've ever had the misfortune of exchanging text with. but - you are a typical yank GI - so its looking more and more like you're telling the truth, way to go dude!

fair enough you didn't know better.

but what's this now about addressing me as A)typical and B)yank? i feel like i know quite a few more GIs than you and out of the many thousands i've had the misfortune of interacting with personally, i can count the decent, open-minded, and intelligent ones on my own two hands.

i'm no yank either. are you a mick? (sorry to all my irish cousins, this is just to make a point) is that the kind of hole you're sticking me in?

i don't fly a flag, i don't even support the us constitution, but i'm still a naturalized american. being a gi doesn't define me, even though it helped form who i am (not that i believe it was a positive effect), so please don't congratulate me for something i wish i had no part in.

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:37 am

p.s. i'm irish, i'm jewish, i'm anglo, i'm greek, i'm russian, i'm norwegian and i've stood and fought with and against koreans, mexicans, and black americans. i'm no bigot, i make no judgement about anyone besides what they say either by action or by word.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:02 am

joshuajames wrote:
b0unce wrote: I also said I was all for people like you, if your claims are true. Claims you made after my statement, btw.

If you cant accept that, well then, its no surprise - you're hardly the most diplomatic person I've ever had the misfortune of exchanging text with. but - you are a typical yank GI - so its looking more and more like you're telling the truth, way to go dude!
fair enough you didn't know better.

thank you

joshuajames wrote: but what's this now about addressing me as A)typical and B)yank? i feel like i know quite a few more GIs than you and out of the many thousands i've had the misfortune of interacting with personally, i can count the decent, open-minded, and intelligent ones on my own two hands.

typical yank GI...basically, up until a moment ago where you comprimised, you seemed like all the other (hundreds of) GI's I served hash to in Amsterdam. Now, in light of recent events...I think you are less typical... you are capable of sensible compromise when cajoled enough

joshuajames wrote: i'm no yank either. are you a mick? (sorry to all my irish cousins, this is just to make a point) is that the kind of hole you're sticking me in?

I'm a mick, yes. To me, a yank is gormless xenophobic pro-war american. Maybe it has a different historical meaning in america. You say you're not a yank, yet you talk about tackling islam head on with offensive discourse, even if it means more violence, in order to bring about reform within islam ? if you say you're not a yank, well, maybe not by your definition....but you pretty much slot snuggly into mine.

joshuajames wrote: i don't fly a flag, i don't even support the us constitution, but i'm still a naturalized american. being a gi doesn't define me, even though it helped form who i am (not that i believe it was a positive effect), so please don't congratulate me for something i wish i had no part in.

ok, duely noted. this is good, good to know these things.

food for thought tho, being a GI might not define you...but its worth knowing who's talking about tackling islam head on even if it means more violence. Some angry dude who was in the army, or someone who's studied theology - perhaps lived in an islamic nation in a context other than war...

joshuajames wrote:p.s. i'm irish, i'm jewish, i'm anglo, i'm greek, i'm russian, i'm norwegian and i've stood and fought with and against koreans, mexicans, and black americans. i'm no bigot, i make no judgement about anyone besides what they say either by action or by word.

you're american, dude. your blood line does not define you either. the culture you live in and were born into is more pertinent, imho. When mommy and daddy, or grand mommy and granddaddy, when they moved to America they embraced American culture. Maybe they tried to keep fragments of their original culture, but it fades away with time - certainly with the next generation. You're no more Irish than saddam hussein was. Nice passport tho, if you have one, everyone wants one.

joshuajames · Post by **joshuajames** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:25 am

i'm not xenophobic, but i am wary of "multi-culturalism" as a repackaged form of corporate fascism. i'm not pro-war either. i did (back in early '03) say that it was worth invading to take saddam's weapons away, but i was wrong to trust the people on tv (all of them, go figure)...

and i'm american because of my family. i could easily walk across the border and show them my birth certificate and be fed and clothed and left to live my life with human dignity in canada. but i choose to stay here because my family and friends are here, plus the weather is nicer. not that canada is utopia, and not that i hate america as a country, but i do loath it as a state, and i worry about the canadians sometimes, it seems they're just a few steps away from trouble themselves.

but back on topic, if you think people should hold their tongues about the awful abuses of the human spirit that are being perpetrated in mosques around the world you are wrong. i'm not encouraging it IN ORDER TO PROVOKE VIOLENCE, but i am saying that being aware of the potential for violence does not mean you should watch your mouth. diplomacy is about compromise and when it comes to dignity and truth there is no compromise....