Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

elemental · Post by **elemental** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:55 am

Why is it narrow minded to rule out spiritual / mystical forces, just because science cannot explain them?

Is it not the opposite?

The problem is too many people give the rational part of their mind total control over themselves. People have forgotton how to FEEL. They think if you can feel something but cannot explain it then it is nonsense, or not real, or important. The rational mind is just a tool, that has enabled us to build houses and create technology etc.

Spriritual / mystical stuff is not necessarily the easy way out, it is if u just say "well we cant explain it so it must be some higher power" and thats the end of it..... but it is certainly possible to investigate these things! Its just we have forgotton how! There are still certain groups of indiginous people who have this knowledge... but to most people in the west especially, it is all nonsense! People need to break out of the "everything can be explained rationally" state of mind, it is extremely limiting.

ytsek · Post by **ytsek** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:56 pm

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams

shlomo · Post by **shlomo** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:28 pm

Two fishes debating in the aquarium..
"Do you think the God exists?"
"Of course you silly! Who do you think is changing the water?"

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:29 pm

elemental wrote:Why is it narrow minded to rule out spiritual / mystical forces, just because science cannot explain them?

Is it not the opposite?

The problem is too many people give the rational part of their mind total control over themselves. People have forgotton how to FEEL. They think if you can feel something but cannot explain it then it is nonsense, or not real, or important. The rational mind is just a tool, that has enabled us to build houses and create technology etc.

Spriritual / mystical stuff is not necessarily the easy way out, it is if u just say "well we cant explain it so it must be some higher power" and thats the end of it..... but it is certainly possible to investigate these things! Its just we have forgotton how! There are still certain groups of indiginous people who have this knowledge... but to most people in the west especially, it is all nonsense! People need to break out of the "everything can be explained rationally" state of mind, it is extremely limiting.

Yet how sure are you that you can trust your feelings any more than your rational mind? We all know how fickle the human mind can be.

I’m sure that there are groups of indigenous people who are more in touch with their spiritual side. Certainly, early civilisations were more in touch with their spiritual side, they needed to be to understand why they were being punished as there was no rain this year. Or any of the thousands of questions they couldn’t hope to answer. Does it make them right? I’m not sure exactly what people or what knowledge you’re talking about so I can’t really say more on it.

You seem as guilty for assuming that there is as higher power based on your feelings that I am that there isn’t based on mine. I guess we’re just as close-minded as each other really.

By the way, I feel plenty. Just not to look for a higher power or a higher meaning.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:37 pm

elemental wrote:Why is it narrow minded to rule out spiritual / mystical forces, just because science cannot explain them?

Is it not the opposite?

No, like i said...

The problem is too many people give the rational part of their mind total control over themselves. People have forgotton how to FEEL.
They think if you can feel something but cannot explain it then it is nonsense, or not real, or important. The rational mind is just a tool, that has enabled us to build houses and create technology etc.

Spriritual / mystical stuff is not necessarily the easy way out, it is if u just say "well we cant explain it so it must be some higher power" and thats the end of it..... but it is certainly possible to investigate these things! Its just we have forgotton how! There are still certain groups of indiginous people who have this knowledge... but to most people in the west especially, it is all nonsense! People need to break out of the "everything can be explained rationally" state of mind, it is extremely limiting.

elemental, i'm not going into this anymore. i'm sure by time you will discover a lot of flaws in your 'reasoning' and some wrong prejugement about 'they' and the 'feeling' part. this one is actually the biggest blunder of all: "well we cant explain it so it must be some higher power". the answer is actually verysimple. NO there must not at all.

i don't mean to offent you, but this is old chees. i'm sure someday you evolve away from your vision...

btw people going into trance is nothing new. hypnotizing is nothing new either. science is not ignoring these things, it's putting them in the right perspective.people who prejudge are bad/no scientists by definition.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:51 pm

actually you should all listen to andydes, because he tells the answers as i should respond them, but can't, because i'm not as intelligent and to the point

that's the strong thing about atheists, we totally agree about almost everything in this discussion. not to be fancy and all, just because the answers are strongly 'fundamented'.

we have consencus.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:05 pm

shlomo wrote:Two fishes debating in the aquarium..
"Do you think the God exists?"
"Of course you silly! Who do you think is changing the water?"

ha! think about that. is the god that changes the water a god?

maybe the fish thinks the god created the fish. boy would he be wrong.

we all know the god isn't all powerfull either now is he.

heck, the god doesn't even know shizzle about how a fish works.

the fish may never grasp the 'dimension' they can only partialy percieve, but we all know there is nothing 'mystical' about the dry air.

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:30 pm

BoimB son of BoB wrote:actually you should all listen to andydes, because he tells the answers as i should respond them, but can't, because i'm not as intelligent and to the point

that's the strong thing about atheists, we totally agree about almost everything in this discussion. not to be fancy and all, just because the answers are strongly 'fundamented'.

we have consencus.

That’s right, send me £1000 and I’ll show you the true path. I accept all major credit cards and paypal. No checks please.

Really, I’m just interested in the topic. I know no one is going to be converted on the basis of this thread, that’s not my point. I find it interesting to hear what people believe in and why. Some people find the idea of analysing their beliefs as an insult. I consider it a bit of a cop out.

Glad to see no one has flown off the handle yet (it was close a while back). This has actually been the most civilised debate I’ve seen on the topic for a while. If only everyone was so reasonable.

mauve · Post by **mauve** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:33 pm

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:59 pm

BoimB son of BoB wrote:that's the strong thing about atheists, we totally agree about almost everything in this discussion. not to be fancy and all, just because the answers are strongly 'fundamented'.

we have consencus.

OK maybe in terms of science, and religion, but it ends completely at that core level.
For instance there are atheists that are pro and anti death penalty, war, gay marriage, socialism, capitalism etc.
Atheism doesn't define my ethical state as much as determine my perspective on my own responsibility for that ethical state.

For instance, as an atheist I believe that all indication points towards human beings being born basically good. What I mean is helpful, caring about others, and wanting to be apart of whatever event is going on etc. I think the core of mankind isn't based on some unlimited greed and personal desire over the welfare of others, but rather on cooperation. It's our fundamental survival skill.
To me, the basis of most religion defines the individual as flawed, and in need of repair, we must be forgiven, or we have been banished from eden for disobeying etc. Born with original sin. Basically defining mankind as inherently evil.
I find that atheists are divided on this, some believe we are inherently greedy and selfish, others do not.

mauve · Post by **mauve** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:07 pm

mdk · Post by **mdk** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:21 pm

Machinesworking wrote:I find that atheists are divided on this, some believe we are inherently greedy and selfish, others do not.

very true.

i dont think we are inherently one way or the other in a major way, i think a lot of it is training and context.

shlomo · Post by **shlomo** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:51 pm

BoimB son of BoB wrote:
shlomo wrote:Two fishes debating in the aquarium..
"Do you think the God exists?"
"Of course you silly! Who do you think is changing the water?"
ha! think about that. is the god that changes the water a god?

maybe the fish thinks the god created the fish. boy would he be wrong.

we all know the god isn't all powerfull either now is he.

heck, the god doesn't even know shizzle about how a fish works.

the fish may never grasp the 'dimension' they can only partialy percieve, but we all know there is nothing 'mystical' about the dry air.

The true Cartesian paradigma (with Heisenberg uncertainty principle included):
"I think therefore i am, at least i think so..."

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:02 pm

shlomo wrote:
BoimB son of BoB wrote:
shlomo wrote:Two fishes debating in the aquarium..
"Do you think the God exists?"
"Of course you silly! Who do you think is changing the water?"
ha! think about that. is the god that changes the water a god?

maybe the fish thinks the god created the fish. boy would he be wrong.

we all know the god isn't all powerfull either now is he.

heck, the god doesn't even know shizzle about how a fish works.

the fish may never grasp the 'dimension' they can only partialy percieve, but we all know there is nothing 'mystical' about the dry air.

The true Cartesian paradigma (with Heisenberg uncertainty principle included):
"I think therefore i am, at least i think so..."

nolus · Post by **nolus** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:03 pm

ytsek wrote:"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams

Yes, but the Bable Fish is a dead give away isn't it?