Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[BoimB son of BoB]

that's the strong thing about atheists, we totally agree about almost everything in this discussion. not to be fancy and all, just because the answers are strongly 'fundamented'.

we have consencus.

OK maybe in terms of science, and religion, but it ends completely at that core level.
For instance there are atheists that are pro and anti death penalty, war, gay marriage, socialism, capitalism etc.
Atheism doesn't define my ethical state as much as determine my perspective on my own responsibility for that ethical state.

For instance, as an atheist I believe that all indication points towards human beings being born basically good. What I mean is helpful, caring about others, and wanting to be apart of whatever event is going on etc. I think the core of mankind isn't based on some unlimited greed and personal desire over the welfare of others, but rather on cooperation. It's our fundamental survival skill.
To me, the basis of most religion defines the individual as flawed, and in need of repair, we must be forgiven, or we have been banished from eden for disobeying etc. Born with original sin. Basically defining mankind as inherently evil.
I find that atheists are divided on this, some believe we are inherently greedy and selfish, others do not.

of course. i totally agree. SEE!

[knotkranky]

I didn't read too many of the posts so pardon if i'm out of context here. I think it's important to look at what has never changed since the beginning of time. Ancient history is the beginning of who we are today and what many faiths have evolved from.

Take prayer. How did that start? what was the first prayer? I bet it was about food. Sustenance. I'm starving, i'm gonna die, oh please great big hairy thingy come over here and bring your friends. Look at the earliest cave paintings. They all paid respects to the living sustenance gods in their hood.

That held on for a very long time. Forward from there and a few thousand years ago it was still animal gods then egyptian and Greek human animal hybrids. Then came monotheism with a heavy patriarchal rule.

I've over simplified cuz i'm hungry but the the new single god was the image of a man and suddenly it became way to easy to relate to god and cheat yourself when it should be the hardest thing to do. Sorta reminds me of the baptism scene in "Brother where ought thou" It's the rubber stamp; "do this and your with us" thing that is troublesome. But it's deeply rooted in that very eventful period a few thousand years ago. Religion can use some new fresh perspectives.

[nolus]

j
The true Cartesian paradigma (with Heisenberg uncertainty principle included):
"I think therefore i am, at least i think so..."

To do is to be - Descartes
To be is to do - Satre
Do be do be do - Sinatra

[shtreimel]

this thread has actually risen to another level! this is the god discussion i was hoping for in stead of biblical nonsense and stuff. thank too simplesatisfaction!

Biblical nonsense? Religious zealots and R2DT-type athiests deserve each other. Curious...when you're on stage performing live, do you give credit to your serotonin and dopamine and perfectly formed synaptic cleft for your creative genius? I mean, they're the REAL reason you're making music...it's not spirit or soul or anything, it's just chemicals.

[mdk]

youre funny, in a reductio ad absurdum kind of way.

[andydes]

But if that's all there is to it, does it make it any less worthwhile? I am who am. If that because of an everlasting soul or a bunch of electrical activity in a lump of tissue doesn't make any differnce.

[elemental]

But if that's all there is to it, does it make it any less worthwhile? I am who am. If that because of an everlasting soul or a bunch of electrical activity in a lump of tissue doesn't make any differnce.

Exactly.... they are just two levels of looking at things.
Reality is mainly illusion anyway. Yes, on one level it is all just chemicals, or interation of energy, or vibrations... but where do emotions and love and feeling come into it? You could say they are there for biological reasons, so we can find food, mates and avoid danger. So why the fuck do we make music???? Or draw pictures? Or write poetry??? Where does that shit come from???

Cos I dont really know! It sounds crazy but when I'm really in the zone, feeding off ideas, tripping out in the studio ... it sometimes feels like I'm just a medium, like i've tapped into some source, interacting with it using my skills and knowledge to bring something from the void into reality. What that source is, whether its just some part of me or somehow outside my self. or a bit of both.... who knows.

[ethios4]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013007F.shtml

[shlomo]

To do is to be - Descartes
To be is to do - Satre
Do be do be do - Sinatra

do bop - Miles Davis

[andydes]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013007F.shtml

Well, that makes for a bleak read. I'd like to think it's an exaggeration.

Elemental / Shtreimel:

Well, there’s certainly been cases of people who have suffered from severe head traumas having their personality completely changed. Some go from being loving and loyal husbands to right unpleasant people. Does this mean that their soul has also been affected? I’ve heard of people who after suffering a stroke have suddenly discovered a completely new talent for art or music.

If memory, emotions, personality, talent, etc. can all be altered by drugs or damage to the brain, I’d have to conclude that that’s where they stem from. So what else is their of me I can attribute to a soul? Consciousness? Try downing a bottle of whiskey and see what happens to that.

My music comes purely from my own semi randon pissing around and I've a long way to go, so maybe you guys are onto something I've missed afterall. Maybe I'll improve if I can tap into something bigger, I don't know. Speaking of which, time to go home and get on with it. Souless beats and bleeps, though it is.

Chips,

Des

[shtreimel]

Maybe I'll improve if I can tap into something bigger, I don't know.

I'd say this is true for life as well as music. And in many cases, this might mean walking away from PSP or Ableton Live and going for a hike. Nothing too esoteric. Some good ol' secular mindfulness meditation works as well.

[BoimB son of BoB]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013007F.shtml

Well, that makes for a bleak read. I'd like to think it's an exaggeration.

Elemental / Shtreimel:

Well, there’s certainly been cases of people who have suffered from severe head traumas having their personality completely changed. Some go from being loving and loyal husbands to right unpleasant people. Does this mean that their soul has also been affected? I’ve heard of people who after suffering a stroke have suddenly discovered a completely new talent for art or music.

If memory, emotions, personality, talent, etc. can all be altered by drugs or damage to the brain, I’d have to conclude that that’s where they stem from. So what else is their of me I can attribute to a soul? Consciousness? Try downing a bottle of whiskey and see what happens to that.

My music comes purely from my own semi randon pissing around and I've a long way to go, so maybe you guys are onto something I've missed afterall. Maybe I'll improve if I can tap into something bigger, I don't know. Speaking of which, time to go home and get on with it. Souless beats and bleeps, though it is.

Chips,

Des

awww i would say that to be an argumentational uppercut?

[victorjohn]

I find it fascinating that all, and I mean all evolutionist argument, atheist belief, philosophical self-actualization, and even the field of bio-engineering requires just as much presupposition as a religion does. I always wonder about that. Scientists and philosophers alike form a meta-narrative of their own and present it as support for a personal morality, a personal philosphy, of no communal impact or consequence really apart from their own physical reach.

As I see this present age dawn on the human race, I marvel at our inablity to solve our own problems, and our insistence that each of us has an answer or some profound observation that needs hearing.

Oh I hear much high rhetoric on the "problems" caused by religion itself, but I see the forces of contemporary thought applying their strength to the creation of greater military weaponry, commercial drugs with a massive risk/failure rate, and the home-delivery of greater forms of deviance (real violence video games, porn, mindless programming).

We call this evolution? Even if the order of universal principles converged in a random moment of greatness to birth existence as we know it, we humans are certainly not ordering them on to greater result. Forgive the ancients for leaping past our post-modern dilema with a story of the "fall of man." Apparently they were trying to spare us an embarrassing moment getting caught mentally masturbating in public.

You know what I see in evolutionists and atheists? The dying bitter words of the modern era. It is comical to see this desperate clinging to the comic book drawings of Darwin. There is no more proof of this position than that of the "religious zealots." I for one will cease acknowledging Enlightenment-era foolishness.

Before I go down in a blaze of flames, I ask: Don't point me to any "empirical" evidence for a godless and progressive existence. First look up the meaning of "empirical" at webster.com and ask, what human being has climbed out of themselves to make such an observation.

These threads are freaking absurd with their post-modern knots, as if somehow together we can berate one another into some kind of existential solution.

And as for Dawkins, there are colleagues of his the believe the exact opposite, in whom shall I place my faith?

Yeah, I did it... I brought choice into the matter? Did I upset the Karmic balance? Did I insult my neurotransmitters? Are my elemental particles spinning in a new fashion?

Wait, tell me what I believe on an internet forum, because that is why I bought Ableton Live... I had a void in my heart and wanted your rational religion to fill it.

[mdk]

And as for Dawkins, there are colleagues of his the believe the exact opposite, in whom shall I place my faith?

if you have faith that needs placing you can put it where you like mate. Dawkins certainly doesnt ask for anyones faith.

Wait, tell me what I believe on an internet forum, because that is why I bought Ableton Live... I had a void in my heart and wanted your rational religion to fill it.

thats a pretty strange reason to buy Live, but if it works for you.

[victorjohn]

And as for Dawkins, there are colleagues of his the believe the exact opposite, in whom shall I place my faith?

if you have faith that needs placing you can put it where you like mate. Dawkins certainly doesnt ask for anyones faith.

Wait, tell me what I believe on an internet forum, because that is why I bought Ableton Live... I had a void in my heart and wanted your rational religion to fill it.

thats a pretty strange reason to buy Live, but if it works for you.

Well, being a self-appointed expert in retroactively analyzing history... I concluded that I must have bought it for that reason, as the general forum here seems as dedicated to attacking belief systems as it does use of Ableton software.