Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[Machinesworking]

I like how you avoid the come backs that sting. No real way of slipping around the simple fact that religious people are almost always behind attacks on artistic freedom, funding etc.
Good job Yahweh guy!

How about this one. 99% of the religious people out there vote against gays having the same medical benefits as straight people etc. Publicly promote the fear that people have towards gays etc. That's really promoting living standards that are benefiting our communities....... but wait, it's OK because it's in the bible.

However, as a Jew, I take great pride in the fact that my religion has never sanctioned genocide, mass conversions, crusades, and terrorism against another people.

Ok, cue the simpleton middle east pundits....GO!

Why would anybody have to comment on this? You pretty much summed up your lack of care about that subject with those two sentences didn't you?
It's called sympathizing with a abuser in psychology, you really should look into it.

[shtreimel]

However, as a Jew, I take great pride in the fact that my religion has never sanctioned genocide, mass conversions, crusades, and terrorism against another people.

i would disagree...but i've learnt its better not to bother arguing with you

Boo

[shtreimel]

I like how you avoid the come backs that sting. No real way of slipping around the simple fact that religious people are almost always behind attacks on artistic freedom, funding etc.
Good job Yahweh guy!

A) You're right
B) But I wasn't addressing a political/funding point in my "soul" comment. Julia Cameron discusses the concept of "soul" in artistic work. Many artists thank God/Spirit for the gift they were provided. It's that "soul" and not organised religion perse that I was addressing.

[shtreimel]

Why would anybody have to comment on this? You pretty much summed up your lack of care about that subject with those two sentences didn't you?
It's called sympathizing with a abuser in psychology, you really should look into it.

I'm a proud Jew. I know that's rare these days. Y'know, where you've got to see all sides...love all sides...nothing's real, everything's relative, etc., etc. Sorry, I don't see things that way.

[andydes]

I'm a proud Jew. I know that's rare these days. Y'know, where you've got to see all sides...love all sides...nothing's real, everything's relative, etc., etc. Sorry, I don't see things that way.

Pride (vanity, narcissism), Hubris
In almost every list Pride is considered the original and most serious of The Seven Deadly Sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to give compliments to others though they may be deserving of them, and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God). Dante's definition was "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbour." In Jacob Bidermann's medieval miracle play, Cenodoxus, Pride is the deadliest of all the sins and leads directly to the damnation of the famed Doctor of Paris, Cenodoxus. In perhaps the most famous example, the story of Lucifer, Pride was what caused his Fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan. Vanity and Narcissism are prime examples of this Sin. In the Divine Comedy, the penitent were forced to walk with their heads bowed while they were whipped in order to induce feelings of humility.

Good luck with that moral superiority of yours.

[jeskola]

believe and you will recieve

[shtreimel]

I'm a proud Jew. I know that's rare these days. Y'know, where you've got to see all sides...love all sides...nothing's real, everything's relative, etc., etc. Sorry, I don't see things that way.

Pride (vanity, narcissism), Hubris
In almost every list Pride is considered the original and most serious of The Seven Deadly Sins,

Good luck with that moral superiority of yours.

Another definition:
Pride: feeling self-respect or pleasure in something by which you value

BTW...Seven Deadly Sins was created by Pope Gregory the Great in his Moralia in Job....so like Christ, it has little relevance to a Jewish soul

[pilcrow]

Well just come back from Bible study and have a couple of things to report:

Religion is a haven for the misbeliever (ref: Pharisees of Matthew 3:7)

Do not love the world or anything in the world. (1 John 2:15)

Oh and the obvious: if a person has to go through Christ to get eternal life - what happens to the righteous African tribesman who died in 500AD without ever hearing of Christ?

Holy crap! After a successful 2000-year run, Christianity's Achilles heel is exposed by an alert poster on a music-software forum, and the entire edifice crumbles! Take the rest of the day off, Simon.

[andydes]

I'm a proud Jew. I know that's rare these days. Y'know, where you've got to see all sides...love all sides...nothing's real, everything's relative, etc., etc. Sorry, I don't see things that way.

Pride (vanity, narcissism), Hubris
In almost every list Pride is considered the original and most serious of The Seven Deadly Sins,

Good luck with that moral superiority of yours.

Another definition:
Pride: feeling self-respect or pleasure in something by which you value

BTW...Seven Deadly Sins was created by Pope Gregory the Great in his Moralia in Job....so like Christ, it has little relevance to a Jewish soul

Yes, I realise that, I don't have the time or inclination to find a Jewish reference. Since you don't seem to have any trouble bringing up the bible in argument when it suits you, I didn't think you'd mind too much.

You were the one who decided to treat this discussion as an exercise in ill thought out point scoring, so I thought I might as well have a shot.

Besides, me trying to reason with you on a theological level is likely to be as sucessfull as you attempting to debate with me on science. Not supprising I was shot down.

[shtreimel]

Besides, me trying to reason with you on a theological level is likely to be as sucessfull as you attempting to debate with me on science. Not supprising I was shot down.

Exactly. Which is why I haven't waded into the the evolution vs. creation vs. macro-evolution debate. In our Sabbath book club, I leave that to my fiance and her science-oriented friends/colleagues. Stick with what you know and what moves you. Unfortunately for my artistic/psychodynamic bent, our next book - the Science of God, by Gerald L. Schroeder - is by a former professor of nuclear physics at MIT and former member of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission.

[andydes]

Well just come back from Bible study and have a couple of things to report:

Religion is a haven for the misbeliever (ref: Pharisees of Matthew 3:7)

Do not love the world or anything in the world. (1 John 2:15)

Oh and the obvious: if a person has to go through Christ to get eternal life - what happens to the righteous African tribesman who died in 500AD without ever hearing of Christ?

Holy crap! After a successful 2000-year run, Christianity's Achilles heel is exposed by an alert poster on a music-software forum, and the entire edifice crumbles! Take the rest of the day off, Simon.

Heh, heh.

I thought the churches position was that until Jesus died for our sins, the path to Heaven was blocked by original sin. Some churches anyway. I may have been half asleep in RE class when it was mentioned.

I more concered about "Do not love the world or anything in the world. (1 John 2:15)". Doesn't sound like a very environmentally freindly quote to me.

[shtreimel]

I may have been half asleep in RE class when it was mentioned.

It's interesting how the loudest atheists, both on this bb and current hot-selling authors - are all Christian. No Jews...No Muslims...No Buddhists...No Taoists...

Why? What PTS experience did y'all go through to have such strong feelings towards deists.

[mdk]

It's interesting how the loudest atheists, both on this bb and current hot-selling authors - are all Christian. No Jews...No Muslims...No Buddhists...No Taoists...

You seem to be struggling with your logic here.

atheists dont believe in god, theyre not christians, nor are they any other religion. its not like they have somehow lost their faith and need to be re-programmed back into the cult.

edit: *some* may have recovered from a previous brainwashing, but others such as myself were never part of any cult.

[andydes]

I may have been half asleep in RE class when it was mentioned.

It's interesting how the loudest atheists, both on this bb and current hot-selling authors - are all Christian. No Jews...No Muslims...No Buddhists...No Taoists...

Why? What PTS experience did y'all go through to have such strong feelings towards deists.

I don't have any strong feelings towards diests. If you look back through the posts, I'd hope you'll find I tried to keep this open as serious discussion, not a screaming argument. I find the topic interesting and love to hear peoples views on it. When they're being reasonable, at least.

Maybe it is the church of england upbringing, they're very big on understanding and not so hot on the punishment side of things. (I never said that the culture of my upbringing has no bearing on my morals).

[Simon Waters]

I thought the churches position was that until Jesus died for our sins, the path to Heaven was blocked by original sin. Some churches anyway. I may have been half asleep in RE class when it was mentioned.

Well my point was that if you live for the light, the truth and the way (which Jesus represents) then your're on the right path, no matter when you were born. Didn't put it very well perhaps.

I more concered about "Do not love the world or anything in the world. (1 John 2:15)". Doesn't sound like a very environmentally freindly quote to me.[/quote]

Well I'm doing a Masters in Environmental studies so you've raised my hackles. I take "the world" here to mean man made things of our present age.