Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[shtreimel]

if religion was effective at making people better then we wouldnt be in such a shitty situation now, after all its been around for thousands of years.

Well we're not tossing babies into firey pits to appease the gods. So that's an improvement. I'm not sure religion every claimed to "make people better" only to provide a blueprint to choose (free will) to be better. Many of us choose to play Playstaion and watch porn. Perhaps that's enlightenment. I believe the Torah/Bible way is a better way.

[Keyser Soze]

I am staying out of this debate.

[Machinesworking]

Interesting, I didn't know about the quote on the belt. However scholars are divided with respect to Hitler's adherence to Catholicism, however you can replace him with Caligula, Mao, Saddam Hussein, or Kim Jung Il, Pol Pot and/or Stalin as examples of non-religious sorts who were responsible for countless deaths of innocents. Point being, it's easy to sling mud at religion post 9-11, but God fearing folks will have to murder more than a few million more to catch up to their non-religious counterparts.

Huh? It's only been in the last 100 years that non religious political movements have made any amount of impact on the death count. Religious people have murdered in the name of god, or with god on their side, for thousands of years. The numbers are definitely skewed towards religious people as far as death count.
Caligula is a non religious guy huh?

[Keyser Soze]

Though, I am tempted to join in this debate.

[Machinesworking]

Though, I am tempted to join in this debate.

Don't, for the sake of the children, please!

[shlomo]

This debate (despite that it took some blackandwhite turns, and having some minor lack of tolerance) just showed us how deeply frustrated we are by not having the real chance to deeply and truely discuss its content in our societies (whatever they are). Being christian, jewish, buddhist, muslim, agnostik or atheist always comes later the fact that we are human beings. Now THAT is a real framework to start with and to end with as well; getting rid of the dogma that bounds our freedom to be human, and think freely (giving the oportunity to others to do that as well) might be the first and most bravest step

otherwise we are just slaves...
and the only slavery i am prepared to accept is to the RHYTHM!

[pilcrow]

Another disadvantage of the "skygod" fader is that your forced to follow ridiculous rules in a manual that was written over 2000 years ago and is impossible to follow due to poor translation.

Yeah, crazy stuff like "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do good to those who harm you." It's utter rot.

Oddly enough you quote one passage that has never made sense to me. Why on earth would you want to do good to those that harm you? That's ridiculous. Sure, don't stoop to their level, but I sure as hell am not offering cookies to the guy who cuts my arm off?
Anton LeVay is rolling over in his grave!

Well, it kind of goes along with the whole "peacemaking" thing that many religions espouse. I guess you either see it or you don't. If you don't see it, you're certainly not alone.

[pilcrow]

Now THAT is a real framework to start with and to end with as well; getting rid of the dogma that bounds our freedom to be human

So I can do whatever I want?

[womoma]

Im an atieist ... and it annoys me that so many religious people presume I am a drug taking, drunken, selfish, cynical womaniser with no morals or values.

They're right, I am all of that.

I just hate being so predictable.

[shtreimel]

Caligula is a non religious guy huh?

Yes, and quite depraved as well.

Huh? It's only been in the last 100 years that non religious political movements have made any amount of impact on the death count. Religious people have murdered in the name of god, or with god on their side, for thousands of years. The numbers are definitely skewed towards religious people as far as death count.

Source please?

Here's mine:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html
"...the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

Got plenty more where that came from. Your turn.

[Tone Deft]

I am staying out of this debate.

That's a more interesting question than whatever these guys are going on and on about.


Please check yourselves, if we all agreed it'd be boring and scary. Embrace each side of the argument, some people need to row on the left side of the boat, some need to row on the right side of the boat.

[Sales Dude McBoob]

Ikea Charlie Rose.

Nice backdrop, but that room was a bit echoy for an interview

Um but yeah...

is this anything new? I'm with the guy, but, I dunno. What's all the fuss?

[Machinesworking]

Caligula is a non religious guy huh?

Yes, and quite depraved as well.

that's simply not true, he believed in Zeus, and proclaimed himself to be a god. It's not your brand of religion, but definitely not atheistic.

Huh? It's only been in the last 100 years that non religious political movements have made any amount of impact on the death count. Religious people have murdered in the name of god, or with god on their side, for thousands of years. The numbers are definitely skewed towards religious people as far as death count.

Source please?

Here's mine:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html
"...the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

Got plenty more where that came from. Your turn.

You know, actually the Christian Science monitor can be a great paper if you read it for facts about US policies etc. fairly unbiased, but let's face a simple fact here, they really can't be reliably sourced for information pertaining to whether religion is used as a tool to divide people and therfore is a source of conflicts in history. We are talking about people that believe that prayer will cure cancer, and if you don't get cured, god wanted you in heaven, therefore doctors are bad.

Your last statement, well if in the last 20 years there have been more people killed in the name of atheism than heave died in all the conflicts mankind has had in the last 2000 years, then yeah, you're right! You have only two real sources, Stalin and Mao, but how many deaths were because of the atheist nature of their militarism? Politics it seems played a bigger role in their tyranny.
Let's face a simple fact here, atheism is a relatively new concept, people have been worshipping something, praying to something, and generally believing that outside forces were controlling destiny forever. whether or not you like to admit it, Zeus and Yahweh are the same dammed thing to an atheist. Your god is just the latest in a long run of ideological concepts that man has had of an afterlife.
I don't think it's necessary to site any facts on that, it's self evident.

Now what roll religion played in war is negligible, I agree with you there, just as atheism had little to do with the devastation caused by the political militarism of Stalin.

Like I said already though, Hitler used religion, and religious hatred of jews, ( by religious people BTW), to demonize and eventually murder millions. That simply is not an atheist exercise in the least. That is a product of religious hatred, period. WWII is definitely not an atheistic death toll.

Same could be said about the Irish conflict, religion was the dividing force between people that developed after there should have been enough generations passed to allow the scotts to integrate, but religion kept that from happening.
Israel and Palestine would be an easier issue without religion playing such a divisive role in the people.
In fact every source CSM sites is full of holes. The Balkins ethnic differences are a direct product of the religious differences, and the wars that they've had that fueled that hatred. In that case a commie kept the peace by outlawing hate crimes. Unfortunately it takes 800 years they say for the wounds to heal, so when Tito died.....

Atheism itself has rarely been used as an excuse to kill people. Never heard of any atheist uprising where people of a particular religion were whipped out because they were of that religion. I guess it's possible that you could say Stalin did some of that, but it was less about whether or not a person was an atheist than whether Stalin felt threatened by them.
Anyway, back to the original point; religion has been used historically to divide and kill, but in the end it's always politics, and whatever method some asshole can use to rally people to gut each other, that asshole will use it. I think we can both agree on that.

[mdk]

Here's mine:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html
"...the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

Got plenty more where that came from. Your turn.

Thats actually quite funny in a sad way.

I see D'Souza is one of those nice people.

[Machinesworking]

Here's mine:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html
"...the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

Got plenty more where that came from. Your turn.

Thats actually quite funny in a sad way.

I see D'Souza is one of those nice people.

Even better, and writing for a newspaper run by a religion that does not believe in medicine.

Saddest part is a met a really sweet young girl who was a christian scientist at work, absolutely beautiful, and just a nice person. It's sad to think of her getting liver failure, and not treating it because prayer is the answer.

But yeah, great source there for your "cause". Liberal bashers are idiots IMO.