Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
bstalz
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:12 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Post by bstalz » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:38 am

Machinesworking wrote:I have to say, ( and I'm an atheist ), I really have never seen anybody confront Dawkins with the little problem of Stalin. Stalin killed millions and his religion was politics. Basically people will use anything to torture and kill each other, they will clan up in countless ways to separate themselves etc. I'm not at all against the idea of mankind eventually outgrowing religion, but I just don't see it happening any time soon. At this point in time, I just don't see mankind as emotionally evolved enough to abandon concepts like religion.
Plenty of people have dealt with this issue and I believe you can find Dawkins deal with it, if not this book, then in other references.

It's also sort of a red herring. It ties into the "communist pinko" thing red blooded Americans spit out.

bstalz
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:12 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Post by bstalz » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:41 am

Meef Chaloin wrote:so do the Dawkinists believe that its wrong to have any kind of faith at all of a higher power, or is it just religion? Is it god altogether or just organised religion?
any concept of an organized being which "created" this universe put forth by any religions...

It's definitely anti-religion, and mostly anti higher-organized being...

The infinite regress of creators is begged...

bstalz
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:12 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Post by bstalz » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:46 am

Finally...

We've come full circle.

Faith is delusion.
Belief based on nothing.
Facts have no relevance - in fact they are better to not be relied upon.

God of the gaps (read the book).
The gaps are getting smaller.
Your belief relies more on faith. Eventually there is nothing, but "trust me."

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:59 am

Behold his noodly appendages, praise him.
Image

www.venganza.org
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

djadonis206
Posts: 6490
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Location: Seattle, WA.

Post by djadonis206 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:45 am

Spaghetti monster, that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!


God's, er well his son at least is a Spaghetti monster...

now I'm Atheist
Ableton | Elektron

Music

Machinesworking
Posts: 11551
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:57 am

djadonis206 wrote:Spaghetti monster, that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!


God's, er well his son at least is a Spaghetti monster...

now I'm Atheist
Just don't be a dick about it! :wink:

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:23 am

Machinesworking wrote:Just don't be a dick about it! :wink:
You're just jealous of his noodly appendages.

It's an interesting movement, proove that the FSM isn't any more valid as a diety than any of the others. Nobody can do it, where's your faith? Mine is with beer volcanoes and stripper factories in heaven, every Friday is a holiday and this is a diety with (meat)BALLS!! Beats crayons in sunday school and the same 52 stories every year over and over again in church.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Seyser Koze
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:18 pm

Post by Seyser Koze » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:35 am

pilcrow wrote:
Seyser Koze wrote:Even you suggest that science is a long way from finding an answer which most people would agree with, yet that doesn't mean there isn't one. Even if we never find it.
-nor does it mean that Science is the only approach to it. The "belief" that Science is the only way to experience the world is a form of faith.
Seyser Koze wrote:You are simply unaware of the problems occuring throughout the world.
Oh.
Seyser Koze wrote:more than 70% would vote for a religious person even if that candidate was black, gay or a woman.

You don't think these things are dangerous?
Which things? Being black? gay? female? religious? All are OK by me.
Seyser Koze wrote:Would any of the religious people we have debated with in this forum lkeave their kids at home when they go to pray on their holy day, or do you force your children to come with you and rpesent you religion as the one great truth?

Would you let them make up your own mind and leave them at home with a babysitter?

No, i didn't think so. just keep forcing them into your mindset to keep the dream alive. poor little crites never stand a chance to develop their own minds.
Got me all figured out, don’t you?
Question: Do you try to impart to your own children the beliefs and values that you hold dear, or do you tell them “no way of living is any better or worse than any other; do whatever you want”?

To answer your question—I taught my children the values I believe in, as I hope you do for yours. One of those values being the autonomy of the individual and his conscience, of course my kids are free to make up their own minds on the matter.

Seyser Koze wrote:What if they converted to a different faith, would you still repsect them?


No, i didn't think so.
wrong again
Seyser Koze wrote:How on earth can anyoine defence still believeing the earth was only made 4000 years ago? or ignore the existence of dinosaurs?

You laugh, but believe, most religions stillignore the facts.
You’re taking shots at a caricature. I don’t believe those things. Plenty of atheists believe stupid things too. :)
I don't see how you can contineu to be religious with the answers you have given above.

The bible clearly states that you should not worship false idols and yet you are prepared to let that go should your children decide to adopt another faith and in effect break one of your golden rules.

Hypocritical, cherry-picking pointlessness.

I'm out.

But not before I say that I encourage my children to think about all the issues and that I currently will not allow them to attend religious education classes until Humanist teachings are included.

Seyser Koze
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:18 pm

Post by Seyser Koze » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:34 am

And we all loved each other, regardless of our beliefs.

Excellent. Group hug.

Except I am with Dawkins on the the critical mass because I still cannot abide the previledge in society for religion. (Financial law, tax, government, education etc.)

Except these benfits of course does not apply to Hindus in the UK.

Ah no one cares eh?, as long as the others get their way whoi cares about the Hindus, they can't shout loud enough.

One rule for one and one for the others.

Sure why not, thats democracy.

I have already stated, and will again, that I have no problem with individuals and believeing whatever they want to believe.

I simply call for equality and the removal of religious previledge and the removal of relgious teaching in schools as a compulsory element particularly without humanist teaching in parallel.

Schools should teach children they can be good people. Not that they cannot be good people without a god.

pilcrow
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:26 pm

Post by pilcrow » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:46 am

Seyser Koze wrote:I don't see how you can contineu to be religious with the answers you have given above.
Well, luckily, I don't have to make you understand. :)

pilcrow
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:26 pm

Post by pilcrow » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:59 pm

You know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster “argument” would make a little more sense if there had not been, throughout human history, a majority opinion that there is some such thing as a prime mover, an uncaused cause, etc.—i.e., a “god” if you will—lying behind the creation of the world. No society ever postulated a FSM as far as I know.

Do you feel love for your children? Can you prove to me that what you feel for your children is indeed love and not a barely restrained urge to, say, douse them with tomato sauce? Can’t prove that? Then I don’t believe you love your children.

Makes about as much sense.

andydes
Posts: 2917
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: Bremen

Post by andydes » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:47 pm

pilcrow wrote:You know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster “argument” would make a little more sense if there had not been, throughout human history, a majority opinion that there is some such thing as a prime mover, an uncaused cause, etc.—i.e., a “god” if you will—lying behind the creation of the world. No society ever postulated a FSM as far as I know.

Do you feel love for your children? Can you prove to me that what you feel for your children is indeed love and not a barely restrained urge to, say, douse them with tomato sauce? Can’t prove that? Then I don’t believe you love your children.

Makes about as much sense.
But I don't claim that my love created the universe.

pilcrow
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:26 pm

Post by pilcrow » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:06 pm

andydes wrote:
pilcrow wrote:You know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster “argument” would make a little more sense if there had not been, throughout human history, a majority opinion that there is some such thing as a prime mover, an uncaused cause, etc.—i.e., a “god” if you will—lying behind the creation of the world. No society ever postulated a FSM as far as I know.

Do you feel love for your children? Can you prove to me that what you feel for your children is indeed love and not a barely restrained urge to, say, douse them with tomato sauce? Can’t prove that? Then I don’t believe you love your children.

Makes about as much sense.
But I don't claim that my love created the universe.
um, you kind of missed my point. Can you prove to me that what you call "love" for your children is not, in fact, a barely restrained urge to cover them in tomato sauce? If you can't prove that to my satisfaction, then I say your "love" for your children is a myth.

Seyser Koze
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:18 pm

Post by Seyser Koze » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:08 pm

pilcrow wrote:You know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster “argument” would make a little more sense if there had not been, throughout human history, a majority opinion that there is some such thing as a prime mover, an uncaused cause, etc.—i.e., a “god” if you will—lying behind the creation of the world. No society ever postulated a FSM as far as I know.

Do you feel love for your children? Can you prove to me that what you feel for your children is indeed love and not a barely restrained urge to, say, douse them with tomato sauce? Can’t prove that? Then I don’t believe you love your children.

Makes about as much sense.
makes about as much sense as a society who would want to worship, planets, say?

Oh hold on a minute... :roll:

The Romans ran the world and built temples to all sorts of crazy planet gods.

Now no-one does that anymore. Is this religion any less valid than yours simply becasue no-one believes it anymore? Or do religions only exist if people are there to believe them.

The Roman gods were around for a very long time and yet despite them being dumped by the entire human race, they have not smote their revenge or in fact done anything at all to vent their displeasure in a way that we can specifically attribute to them.

I know you don't disgaree with that because to do so would be to agree that there are more gods than just your god.

Oh hold on.... :roll:

There are, to the atheists, more gods apparent than just yours...there is lord Brahma for the hindus and allah and god and etc.etc. round the world.

Why would any rational thinker believe the situation is any different now than it was in Egyptian times or Roman times or any time where they worshipped gods that now no longer exist as viable alternatives?

Answer: We wouldn't. Its as much horse shit now as it was then, just the names have changed and the temples are different and we (probably) don't deliberately sacrifice humans.

And of course, you cannot say no to this either, becasue you already agreed you would respect your children if they chose another path than yours. What if they chose ancient egyptian gods? Is that OK to you? Does that no invlaidate your own beliefs? Or is it you would repfer they chose an alternative skygod to pacify your need for some sort of validation of your own beliefs.

So now, we know you cannot say no to alternative religions, why not the FSM?

He may not be a trendy religion yet, but we can start today. We can write a "bible" of his noodly teachings and in 2000 years time all will worship him.

For me, there is no difference except your craziness is happening now and the Roman craziness is in the past and the FSM craziness is in the future.

It is however, all the same.

Seyser Koze
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:18 pm

Post by Seyser Koze » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:12 pm

pilcrow wrote:
Seyser Koze wrote:I don't see how you can contineu to be religious with the answers you have given above.
Well, luckily, I don't have to make you understand. :)
Yes. You do.

Post Reply