Dissapointed about Live 6.

[hoffman2k]

ctrl+e is one of my favorite.
I am talking about things like simple crossfades....

The funny thing is, all they need to add is the ability to work on 2 volume curves at once. Which you can already do manually.
And consolidate the files together. which also can be done in Live already.

And maybe a preset browser for curves. a.k.a dummy clips...

I know you don't care for doing it this way. Since it less pretty then protools/cubase.
Still, it's there and not impossible to do in Live.
But don't mind me.
If this app didn't require workarounds. I'd be bored with it anyway.

[Poster]

read the context please..

Live is the only solution designed for each stage of the musical process, from creation to production to performance.

the only solution means the only app that offers the tools for the whole process of music making and performing; Create. Produce. Perform.

During production, Live provides all of the professional tools and studio compatibility required to complete and perfect projects. On stage, Live delivers the expressive control and stability that innumerable performing artists have come to rely on. Live 6—Music Creation, Production, and Performance for Mac OS and Windows. Create. Produce. Perform."

all of the professional tools means all tools to complete and perfect projects..
Now if you can prove that you're unable to complete a project because Live lacks features, please do..

[hoffman2k]

i think those of you who want live to stay some sort of pristine performance focused tool (exagerating somewhat) are in the minority

Yeah. Minimal is "IN" these days

If Live turns into cubase, it'll lose half of its userbase to the next product who picks up where they left off.
And the other half to steinberg/apple/motu cause they make the same damn thing.
Thats not even a guess. It's a solid prediction.

Fortunately, most of Ableton's developers are of a modular mindset. Even the CEO's.

Racks are a step in the good direction. If you think that is a sign of Live becoming more linear... Guess again

[mauve]

Now if you can prove that you're unable to complete a project because Live lacks features, please do..

[am is are]

hello everybody,

i'm glad to see that this topic has generated a pretty decent discussion.

for starters, i've been using Live since version 1.5. I think it's a great tool for performance and songwriting. As i have experience with other DAW's (Cakewalk, SONAR, and ProTools), i feel that my opinion regarding Live's current shortcomings in the DAW editing department are well-founded (this relates almost exclusively to Fading tools and the very useful "Scissors" tool).

I love Live's simple, clean interface and was immediately drawn to it, and i understand why they don't want to clutter it up. It's very user-friendly and not nearly as intimidating as the average DAW's interface. I think SONAR's great, but as it's capabilities have expanded, yes, the GUI has become a little more intimidating (until you learn it).

My comments about the notorious "CTRL-E" were a reaction to Ableton's CEO's strange attitude/answer. Why NOT make Live the most efficient and productive tool available? Will one more button destroy the interface's clean appearance? (they added 3 with the Arrangement view's Scene controls). If i could have one more button, i would request an EDIT MODE button (exclusive to Arrangement view). This would give us access to hotkeys for splitting a clip (one clip into 2 pieces, not one clip into 3 pieces which is the current "default" unless your selection extends to the beginning or end of the clip you're about to "split.").

One of the very best thing about ProTools is it's hotkey editing. put your cursor where you want it and press one key to split a clip, or crop it from either the beginning or the end. hotkeys for zooming. it's a very fast and efficient way of editing/working, and, after all, that's exactly why computers were invented in the first place.

I'm trying to look at LIVE from the grand (long-term) perspective as well as the specific. I want to see LIVE improve and expand - more instruments would be great (the kind that you don't have to pay extra for) (and, btw, I do own both Operator and Sampler)

As a live performer, I've used LIVE for sound design in theater productions, solo and group abstract/ambient sets, DJ sets, and in duo settings with a live instrumentalist (and that's where my request for a "live" realtime pitchshift FX comes in-- to be able to shift pitch on incoming audio in realtime without having to first record the signal into a clip. And realtime stretching would be awesome, too (obviously you can't go shorter, but just multiply grains to create a flexible slow-motion input signal follower.)

I never asked LIVE to become a full-fledged DAW. Ableton decided to push in that direction, so, if they're going to advertise to the yet-to-be-converted crowd, i feel they should make those small but oh-so important improvements in Arrangement view editing (fade envelopes, splits, crops)... who loses? nobody.

Racks are a terrific edition and i know they took a lot of work to incorporate.

I've stated my opinion on Sampler elsewhere (as have others) and i still believe it's a bit overpriced (considering it comes with no multi-sampled content by itself), and that Amplitude ADSR is Global rather than sample-specific.

I would love LIVE to continue to push and develop itself as the "live performance instrument" it claims to be.

And (there are Ableton employees that agree with me) work toward incorporating clip-based and clip-linked video performance capabilities. NO video editing, but rendering to .MOV's would be great (and makes a lot of sense if you're warping any video). Video FX that are graphic-card rendered (CoreImage, CoreVideo, and CoreAnimation on the Mac side -- and the Windows equivalents on the other). Video FX parameters linked to Audio/Clip/AudioFX parameters plus amplitude and pitch. nothing too fancy. if you can only use one track of video in Session Mode that would be fine with me. I shoot, edit, and tweak video in video-specific programs. I just think it would be the shit to trigger video clips in session view that react to and work with your audio scenes.

that's all for now--- i think this forum is kickass, and i've learned a ton from other users, and i just hope it keeps Ableton on its toes as much as it keeps us inspired and thinking.

peace,
john

[kenporter]

Of course Ableton is a DAW and judging from the graphics on the homepage of this site, showing that they've won the DAW of the year award for the fifth consecutive year, I don't think Ableton is claiming anything else.

I love the workflow of Live more than any other program, i.e. adaptive grid, warp, routing, etc. To me Live is more of an instrument than any other DAW out there, which is very inspiring. However, being a Cubase user for many years, I agree it needs a few improvements in the editing department. I am not neccesarily talking about a scissors tool, I actually like the ctrl-e tool, but there are a few things that were mentioned in other threads that I would absolutely love to see. Once those are included I will have no problem putting my Cubase licenses up for sale, so that I can buy future upgades.

Ken

[ploy]

best could be maybe, to split the line into a performance and into a studio product.

superb point.

[lopark]

It needs a third view for more advanced editing.

Amen. Some thing like Logic's Matrix editor would be most useful.

I would also like having a view where you can simultaneous see the waveforms of many clips, but each has it's own playhead...like in the session view. This would be great for DJing with Live.

[lopark]

So if Ableton has enough sales, best could be maybe, to split the line into a performance and into a studio product.

I completely agree with this statement. Make a Ableton DJ version and a Ableton Studio version. I am thinking now that Ableton has won the DAW award a few times, all they need are really a few more DAW oriented features to make it the best DAW on the market. The workflow in Ableton is really good but could be even better by adding a few things... I am all for Ableton Studio.

Ken

Though it wouldn't surprise me to see Live split into multiple versions, I enjoy it as a single tool with many uses.

[snowtires]

Now if you can prove that you're unable to complete a project because Live lacks features, please do..

i have to use protools every time i do scoring work, because live doesn't have time signature automation.

[Josh Von]

i feel that my opinion regarding Live's current shortcomings in the DAW editing department are well-founded (this relates almost exclusively to Fading tools and the very useful "Scissors" tool).

If i could have one more button, i would request an EDIT MODE button (exclusive to Arrangement view). This would give us access to hotkeys for splitting a clip (one clip into 2 pieces, not one clip into 3 pieces which is the current "default" unless your selection extends to the beginning or end of the clip you're about to "split.").

I dont understand this. You know that splitting clips is a two step operation right?

Click where you want to split, CTRL-E to divide in two.

Click-drag where you want to split, CTRL-E to divide in three.

I dont see how they could make it any simpler or how a new (redundant) scizzors tool would be any more efficient

One of the very best thing about ProTools is it's hotkey editing. put your cursor where you want it and press one key to split a clip

So because you also have to hold CTRL in Live, this is the main reason why you have a problem with it?

Youve been using the program since vs 1, its always been the same

.

[forge]

Live 5.0 is one of the most complete digital audio workstations on the market today. The built-in tools and compatibility with other studio equipment make it a powerhouse of usability, and its stability makes it ideal for any situation. It's definitely a must have for any producer."
Jive Magazine, Autumn 2005

see I think this is a big point

one of the reasons they added multiple track bounce - they know there are certain things Live doesnt do as well at a certain point in the engineering process - and I dont think Ableton are under any illusions about this

You cant deny from a digital AUDIO workstation point of view (as opposed to, say, a digital MUSIC workstation if there is such a thing), Live definitely hits a certain glass ceiling and there are things it doesn't do so readily - Pro tools is quite obviously designed to be a high end studio tool and offers alot of things people in certain areas of the industry, like broadcast etc may need - things like 5.1 for example

Live is a very strong tool for doing those things in that marketing phrase "create. Perform. Produce..." and is one of the most intuitive ways to create music, but it isnt a pro tools replacement - nor should it pretend to be really

there will always be a point where someone somewhere is trying to use it to do everything and is a bit disappointed it doesnt do something the others do

of course there are ALOT of us around who have no need for the things Live doesnt do that the likes of pro tools do, so we're happy with just Live but there are alot of things you might have to do that need a straight up big DAW like PT because Live doesnt handle the more mundane audio engineering type stuff as well

I very much see Live as a musical tool, but in the Audio engineering side of things there are alot of things it lacks and when I have tried to use it for these kind of things I saw very clearly where the others are at an advantage

even the midi editing, no score or event editing etc etc would be a huge limitation for some people

most of the time I dont miss any of this stuff at all - hardly ever for writing music (except for stupid things like group solo!!!!!)

but I think it's totally pointless arguing about whether it is "better than " pro tools or whatever because in a head to head contest there are certain Jobs Live would fail miserably on because they are different tools for different jobs, and often the people that argue about this are trying to do different things

I think the argument here is more about people using it one way and not being able to imagine other ways the people who arent so satisfied are trying to use it

[Cryptic UK]

If Live turns into cubase, it'll lose half of its userbase to the next product who picks up where they left off.
And the other half to steinberg/apple/motu cause they make the same damn thing.

Yeah thats right be so different that you leave out the really simple things that make those programs great. Listen we cant put that in are program because Cubase has it even though it would make Ableton better a program we cant do that na no way because were different.

Put the simple things in your program(like more tools in arrangement view to name one)and then people will stop using other programs.

I want options! onorofforofforon.

[womoma]

best could be maybe, to split the line into a performance and into a studio product.

NO!

Dont you get it? I, like a large amount of Ableton users, use Live for production, performance, and DJ'ing. Ableton Live IS an all-encompassing music solution.

If you only want to produce, and you want lots of buttons and advanced options, get Cubase or SONAR. Either way, theres still practically nothing they can do that Live cant.

The upgrade price for Live 6 is worth it for racks alone. If you dont appreciate racks, you either dont need advanced options, or you havent delved into their creative possibilities yet.

We all want different things from Live, and its a juggling act for Ableton to keep us all happy without sacrificing the whole point of the application.

The wishlist is for putting forward your ideas, seeing how popular they are, and perhaps getting them noticed and addressed by Ableton.

Apart from some features which have been requested numerous times, I think Ableton are doing a great job, and Live 6 is not a dissappointment for me.

[mercyplease]

what bugs me most about the (primitive) MIDI support, and especially the Editing capabilities in the Arrangement view, is that ABLETON is now advertising LIVE as a COMPLETE musical workstation - creation, performance, production.

but it's way, way short on implementation, as anyone who's used a good DAW knows-- SONAR, ProTools, LOGIC, etc

Ableton better step it up (and i encourage you to do it!!!) before they start losing customers .
... until they build a program that can back up their claims, i'd rather LIVE just focus on making the coolest performance tool they can (in which case:: Sampler should've been much, much cheaper OR the "piece de resistance" of the Live 6 upgrade).

heck! - Live doesn't even include a "live" pitchshifting plug-in for realtime performance use -- what the f**k is that about????

you can do workarounds for some flexibility, but if you start losing speed and functionality and response-time, (by having to route individual Impulse tracks to separate Audio Tracks, just to be able to Mute or Solo them individually, for example) then Ableton's falling off their own track (and i find that very sad and frustrating quite frankly)

Relevant to this: in the recent COMPUTER MUSIC special LIVE addition, Jan 2007, volume 20: Ableton CEO Gerhard Behles is asked about "seasoned Live users' five biggest gripes about the program."

Q: There's still no Scissors tool in the Arrangement view? Why is this?

A: Hmm.. Do you know about Live's Split command - CTRL/Cmnd+E? THIS KEEPS US FROM ADDING MORE BUTTONS TO THE INTERFACE AND ACHIEVES NEARLY THE SAME RESULT.

WHHWHWHATTT????? (my response)

Use yer brains' Ableton> First of all, I would not cry if 5 buttons were added if it helped me EDIT AUDIO faster!!! Second of all: Don't want to add a button?? Then simply let CONTROL-E turn the cursor into a Scissors tool, so that a CLIP can be SPLIT right where you point and click -- so you don't have to hunt/search and highlight (lasso) a block and THEN hit CTRL-E.. what does this do? it saves us all editing time by making a common action quicker and easier to perform.


and this is off-topic a bit, but still relevant:
Why on earth when you click on the SEND channels to edit/examine their FX, do you ever have to see the audio clip window view???? there will never be anything there. you can't put anything there. WE should all immediately see the FX window appear at the bottom, no fuss, no need to push any more buttons or keys or click on a different window view tab.

maybe some would say that's a minor gripe, but, hey, c'mon. It's clean and functional GUI design 101 -- Ableton did great on this in most respects, but this lack of the correct/relevant view appearing is a glaring omission, and it wastes the User's time.

i'll shut up now.

i love LIVE -- i'm just not as "in love" as i used to be

i agree with you on every point and I to couldnt believe the audacity and sheer single mindedness of gerhard.
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