Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:30 pm

Tone Deft wrote: the square root of -1 is 'i', an imaginary number whose use introduces a second dimension (typically phase, ie a time shift) in math and engineering.

Yes, I'm aware of that. The point is it disagrees with most people's naive intuition about numbers, as does the concept of exponential growth, which is the subject of my first query. Likewise, as I've shown throughout this thread, people are completely misguided when it comes to estimating probabilities. We need to admit to ourselves that our intuition is generally pretty poor.

Tone Deft wrote:I totally agree, the basics of science blow my mind. After watching the Nova series on String Theory I was introduced to the question of 'why is the gravitational force the weakest of all the fundamental forces?' The show goes on to say that that might be because we live in a plane of existence that's nearly parallel to the gravitational force, like wtf? wow! It also shows th posibility that the big bang was the result of two sheets of energy in the 11th dimension touching each other, we're the result of one speck of energy transferring from one plane of existence to another... in 11 dimensions.

There you go, another good example. This kind of thing is TRULY amazing, because its putative literal truth does not in any way require a miracle or the divinity of anyone.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:36 pm

I thought you knew about 'i' but after thinking about it I didn't know if it was part of the molecular biology curriculum. Molecular biology, there's a study in the deph of nature, how much can happen in just a drop of water HAS TO make one rethink what's possible, what's undiscovered and how much we don't know.

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:43 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I thought you knew about 'i' but after thinking about it I didn't know if it was part of the molecular biology curriculum. Molecular biology, there's a study in the deph of nature, how much can happen in just a drop of water HAS TO make one rethink what's possible, what's undiscovered and how much we don't know.

I am a molecular biologist by training (Ph.D.), but that requires a fair amount of knowledge of mathematics, physics, and chemistry, not to mention medicine.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:45 pm

Congrats!! That's a cool field and LOTS of work. BSEE here, so I don't know 'i', I know 'j' and to me current flows the wrong direction.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:45 pm

edge100 wrote: I'm a firm believer that lack of education is the tool that has kept religion going all these years.

Or maybe we're drawn to ineffable moments...so moved in fact, that we create prayers, religions, dance etc., to commemorate such affairs. I had an incident in Banff, Alberta that altered my life in serious ways. And I wasn't looking or prepared for it (hell, I was looking to get laid, drink, etc., etc). No, I don't believe lack of education is the issue - have you ever visited a Jewish day school or Yeshivah...besides science, physics, math, English...they learn Aramaic, Hebrew, Jewish Law, etc., etc. - and these same kids thrive in university (think Yeshiva University in New York) and remain practicing Jews.

edge100 wrote:That's not meant to imply that religious people aren't intelligent, but simply to state the fact that (near) universal access to higher education has only become possible in the very recent past.

I saw/heard shit during undergrad and grad school that makes one respect...RESPECT...folks who stay in caves and interpret the Bible literally.

2)

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:51 pm

Machinesworking wrote:All christians believe homosexuality is a sin.

And Jews, Muslims...

Anyone white-washing Machineworking's observation is being dishonest. However Machineworking is missing the point completely. You see, I have tons of friends who eat shell fish, drive on the Sabbath, etc. All big no-no's. Am I a Sabbath-o-phobe if I disagree with their choice? A shell fish-o-phobe? I do believe that man/woman relationship are what God desires...same as Sabbath observance and dietary laws. Last time I checked, I don't remember throwing any stones at my gay, pork eating friends.

kramerica · Post by **kramerica** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:56 pm

edge100 wrote:
kramerica wrote:How does "Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin" = "Christians are homophobic" or "...hate homosexuals"? I don't see the logic there.

I'm not a practicing Christian but I know enough about the belief system to understand that hating the sin is not the same as hating the sinner. In fact, throughout the New Testament, Jesus commands that we love the sinner.
I believe what MW is trying to say (again, correct me if I'm wrong) is something along the lines of this:

Religious moderation is simply bad faith.

Clearly not all Christians are homophobic, nor do all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Many Christians eat shellfish, handle mixed fibres, and do business on the Sabbath. Most Christians feel that slavery is not right. The vast majority of Christians do not believe that stoning is the appropriate punishment for disobeying the 10 commandments.

But, that doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't pronounce all of these things to be sinful. If you've chosen to ignore these tenets of your religion, I think that's wonderful; you've clearly made the recognition that slavery, gay bashing, and ritual stoning are incompatible with human civilization.

Of course, the Bible is very clear on these issue. Anti-abolitionists used the Bible to justify slavery, since both the OT and the NT (!) are very clear on this issue. But we recognize that ownership of other human beings is simply not right.

Of course, many religions have not yet come to the recognition that many of the core beliefs codified in their religious texts have to be put aside for the sake of the future of humanity. In this respect, the vast majority of Christians have done a very good job. But that doesn't mean they aren't practicing bad faith. If god thinks homosexuality is a sin, and slavery is acceptable, then they are. End of story. No amount of maneuvering can change this.

I see what you're saying but I think your interpretation of what the bible really says is via the same process that Protestant Christians endorse; but not Catholics or Orthodox Christians.

The major d/f b/w Protestants (non-hierarchical churches) vs. Catholic or Orthodox (hierarchical churches) is that in Protestantism, an individual interprets the bible personally and without any external direction (or arguably, anyone or thing putting the bible and its passages into context). Hierarchical churches, on the other hand, interpret the bible over the course of centuries and place heavy emphasis on placing passages in context. That is why the Catholic and Orthodox churches don't believe it is Christian to stone people, for whatever reason, or that mixed fibers are bad, or that shellfish is bad, etc. It isn't that they are being non-Christian, it's that theologians over the course of 2000 yrs. of intense bible study and interpretation have found those things not be Christian doctrine. Words had different meanings back then, societal laws were different, etc. and to simply accept the literal reading of the bible as true is intellectually dishonest. Just like how the Catholic Church doesn't oppose evolution or that the world is several billion yrs. old.

But, unfortunately, Protestants, like the American evangelical loons that Jesus Camp features (and which I have a feeling most Europeans and/or non-Christians believe are the 'average' Christian) can simply pick up the bible one day after being reborn by a bottle of Nestle water on their lunch break at Hardees and interpret an ancient document from 2000 yrs. ago with their meager public funded education. It simply doesn't work and results in the "God Hates Fags" churches that spring up in isolated rural communities. These people are referred to as heretics by the hierarchical churches. If a catholic or orthodox Christian began to interpret in this manner and preach accordingly, the hierarchical church authority would put a stop to it (for the better).

I was raised Catholic and originally denounced my religion b/c of the hierarchical nature of it, but then realized that feature is really it's greatest strength. I'm an agnostic now but if I were to accept the whole Jesus divinity thing, I would certainly be Catholic or Orthodox.

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:29 pm

kramerica wrote:Just like how the Catholic Church doesn't oppose evolution or that the world is several billion yrs. old.

This is disingenuous to say the least. The Catholic church spent nearly 1500 years propagating the message that the Earth was the centre of the uinverse, until folks like Galileo provided empirical evidence to suggest that it isn't. The Catholic church did not suddenly say, "Aha! You're right. Looks like we had this all backward. I guess the Earth isn't all there is." They locked Galileo up until the end of his days, prevented the publication of his works (which ultimately had to be published by the Dutch House of Elzevir). And it was only in 1992 (yes, 1992) that the Pope decided the church was wrong in the way it handled the affair. But what is even more baffling was that they ascribed Galileo's discoveries to god's intervention. Shameful, shameful stuff.

Likewise with evolution. What gets me is that if the Catholic church (who, by the way, along with recognizing the literal truth of evolution and the age of the universe, also espouse the literal truth of transsubstantiation, which perhaps destroys their credibility a little) KNEW that evolution was right, why did it take a scientist to come out with the theory? Shouldn't that have been part of the message all along?

You'll excuse me if I don't lend too much creedence to support from the Catholic church, one of the most corrupt, violent organizations that has ever existed.

kramerica wrote:But, unfortunately, Protestants, like the American evangelical loons that Jesus Camp features (and which I have a feeling most Europeans and/or non-Christians believe are the 'average' Christian) can simply pick up the bible one day after being reborn by a bottle of Nestle water on their lunch break at Hardees and interpret an ancient document from 2000 yrs. ago with their meager public funded education. It simply doesn't work and results in the "God Hates Fags" churches that spring up in isolated rural communities. These people are referred to as heretics by the hierarchical churches. If a catholic or orthodox Christian began to interpret in this manner and preach accordingly, the hierarchical church authority would put a stop to it (for the better).

I agree with the sentiment of your post. However, I hold the Catholic church directly responsible (along with American protestants) for the death of millions of people in sub-Saharan Africa every year. A hierarchical system may well stop "individual" thinking, but that by no means absolves the Catholic church of responsibility for the preventable deaths that occur every second of every day in Africa.

kramerica · Post by **kramerica** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:41 pm

Well, as they say "Christians are worst example of Christianity".

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:16 pm

kramerica wrote:Well, as they say "Christians are worst example of Christianity".

ouch...

Someone once said, "beware of anyone who talks about The Lord." God is one thing, The Lord is all that old testament hell and damnation old time religion. To steal from a lawyer joke, "99% of christians give the rest a bad name."

Shtreimel - last weekend I was walking through my 'hood and saw this well groomed guy in his 20s go (so I assume he wasn't up to something greasy, I live in a hood) up to a doorbell, put his hand up to it, get genuinely pissed off, walk away, then back and back again. As I passed him he said he had a very strange request of me and explained how he could not be involved in anything having to do with electricity because it was his sacred day. I pushed the button for him, he was relieved. I respected that, I found it funny to watch, but it's rare to find such conviction.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:31 pm

Tone Deft wrote: Shtreimel - last weekend I was walking through my 'hood and saw this well groomed guy in his 20s go (so I assume he wasn't up to something greasy, I live in a hood) up to a doorbell, put his hand up to it, get genuinely pissed off, walk away, then back and back again. As I passed him he said he had a very strange request of me and explained how he could not be involved in anything having to do with electricity because it was his sacred day. I pushed the button for him, he was relieved. I respected that, I found it funny to watch, but it's rare to find such conviction.

That's a huge mitzvah you did. You've just won bonus points for the heaven you don't believe in

Seriously though, I agree with you, it's rare to sfind such conviction...not just in religion, in almost anything these days.

BTW, which 'hood are you refering to?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:37 pm

I live in the mission in San Francisco, the barrio more like it. It's not a hard neighborhood but the elements of people you DO NOT want to mess with are fixtures, along with a lot of great people, restaurants and bars.

I figure I'm winning points with god by finally being my atheist self, it's my true nature. I'd be a real jerk if I was still in the church and lying to myself and everyone else.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:44 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I figure I'm winning points with god by finally being my atheist self, it's my true nature. I'd be a real jerk if I was still in the church and lying to myself and everyone else.

Ha, ain't it the truth. Good for you. As a psychodynamic fan, I do believe that the "truth shall set you free". Me? I'm not sure. But I envy the faith of the "doorbell" guy.

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:49 pm

shtreimel wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I figure I'm winning points with god by finally being my atheist self, it's my true nature. I'd be a real jerk if I was still in the church and lying to myself and everyone else.
Ha, ain't it the truth. Good for you. As a psychodynamic fan, I do believe that the "truth shall set you free". Me? I'm not sure. But I envy the faith of the "doorbell" guy.

Who would have thought that 43 pages into a thread with the word "god" in the title we would still be so civil to one another.

A pat on the back for everyone, I think!

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:03 pm

edge100 wrote:
shtreimel wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I figure I'm winning points with god by finally being my atheist self, it's my true nature. I'd be a real jerk if I was still in the church and lying to myself and everyone else.
Ha, ain't it the truth. Good for you. As a psychodynamic fan, I do believe that the "truth shall set you free". Me? I'm not sure. But I envy the faith of the "doorbell" guy.
Who would have thought that 43 pages into a thread with the word "god" in the title we would still be so civil to one another.

A pat on the back for everyone, I think!

Indeed, God bless you all