Long-term user... disenchanted...

[mbenigni]

b) Be extremely open to letting the program lead you in accidental directions and have enough wits about you to capture them and use them.

This is a fun approach, but I think it's the one that's more likely to walk you into cliches. If two people on opposite sides of the planet are using the same piece of software, it's very likely they will stumble into the same "happy accident". After 100 people stumble, it's not so happy anymore; it's a cliche.

On the other hand, if you know exactly what your intentions are, the nature of your tools won't impact on your results so much.

[kenporter]

Some great points on both sides. My two cents:

I came from Sonar and SX. I've used lots of other hosts, and to me, Live is the fastest way to work. And I do most of my work in Arrange, while session is just to get a few skeletal ideas together. After Live 4, I just couldn't deal with multiple windows and lack of elegant UI/workflow. When I see multiple windows and 10 clicks for simple tasks, it literally freaks me out. And the audio and midi routing is without a doubt the best implemented in Live. It actually works like a real mixer should...take audio from one track and mix it into another in real time while tweaking FX...so simple, so nice.

Now it's true there are grips with Live, but most every gripe has a workaround. Moreover, I'm not tied to any one paradigm. I can perform with it, create in it, produce with it (rock bands, lots of tracks, electronica, mashups, you name it), and even master in it. With that kind of flexibility, all other tools just pale in comparison. Do I want to utilize my CPU above 70%? Of course. But without that option, I can still freeze. Just one of many examples of how you can get by until the Abes fix it.

Bottom line is that I feel your frustrations. For me, I live with them because the benefits of using Live as my main tool are just too many. There is no other option for me. So technically, that makes me a fanboy, I suppose.

What he said. Personally, I couldn't agree more with this post as I feel the same way, 100%!

Ken

[Naive Teen Idol]

b) Be extremely open to letting the program lead you in accidental directions and have enough wits about you to capture them and use them.

This is a fun approach, but I think it's the one that's more likely to walk you into cliches. If two people on opposite sides of the planet are using the same piece of software, it's very likely they will stumble into the same "happy accident". After 100 people stumble, it's not so happy anymore; it's a cliche.

On the other hand, if you know exactly what your intentions are, the nature of your tools won't impact on your results so much.

Well, in part that's why this one's harder to do. Any successful creative endeavor is a balance between knowing what you want and going after it, and knowing when something you did wrong is actually better than what you had in mind and having the wherewithal to recognize that. And one of Live's strengths, without question, is that it allows you to capture those things really, really quickly — into arrangements, into clips, etc.

It's not some magic box that makes lousy music good or amateur musicians better — rather, it just lets artists approach their work differently than they would otherwise. Whether the result is any better or any worse is up to the artist.

[headquest]

b) Be extremely open to letting the program lead you in accidental directions and have enough wits about you to capture them and use them.

This is a fun approach, but I think it's the one that's more likely to walk you into cliches. If two people on opposite sides of the planet are using the same piece of software, it's very likely they will stumble into the same "happy accident". After 100 people stumble, it's not so happy anymore; it's a cliche.

On the other hand, if you know exactly what your intentions are, the nature of your tools won't impact on your results so much.

Yes, that's spot on I think.

This (2) is generally how I have worked in Live for quite some time now. Generally I *jam* until something takes shape. I have no doubt that is why some stuff has recently begun to sound samey - I can predict my own impulses with it before they happen.

I will continue to use Live in this way, mind you, and try to be new and different still...

...I think it is the planned stuff where a more traditional linear sequencer and recording environment will suit me better than Live. I suspect this is true for lots of users in fact. There seem to be a lot of professionals laiming they use Live now, but I doubt many of them use it for their final album productions (my guess is that PT/Logic/etc still rule in the pro studios, and are likely to continue doing so).

[robbmasters]

I take back all my criticism of Live....

I've just been warping a variable tempo track in Cubase...

[nebulae]

I take back all my criticism of Live....

I've just been warping a variable tempo track in Cubase...

You forgot

[rikhyray]

I originally bought live as a guitarist who was using loopers (first I used the Boomerang, then the Gibson Echoplex which I synced with Reason).

After making songs on the fly, over and over (all of which were destined to be international radio hits), I found that once I turned off my looper - those soon to platinum records were lost. Of course, I could record the audio out of the looper, but who the hell wants to do that and there's no editing capabilities later.

Live allowed me to loop and save and edit/rearrange later. That's all I wanted and that's what I got. The only issue i still have with live is that there's no real time looping (I must record to a static click track or drum beat), no audio overdub, and those real time audio loops certainly don't sync with any subsequent real time loops (like the echoplex did). The "Augustus Loop" plug in apparently does this and so I bought it last week (but haven't learned it yet).

If Live 7 has the above requested features (which shouldn't be too hard, imo, since the technology is already there), then I will be a happy camper.

Oh, and Live allowed me to become a self-taught engineer/producer in the meantime - so that's kind've cool.

Cheers,

bk

If you want the old school looper I remember trying AngstroLooper which works similar way to lexicons Jamman that I was using decade ago. Might work for you.

[dj superflat]

if you want a looper that does everything the echoplex does, but more, and permits saving, try mobius (if on PC). it's awesome.

[Sales Dude McBoob]

Last year there was a special Ableton issue of Future Music for Live 5 (i think it was Future Music). There was an interview with Gerhard, and in it he said he had recently gone back and read the original vision statement (of some document of that nature) that they had created when they started the company. He said he was amazed at all of the plans and ideas they had in that original document, and that they had much more work to do. Was 'world dominiation' on that list? Who knows. Something tells me it was likely more positive & innovative material than anything else.

I still think "Sequencing Instrument" is the coolest sounding description. I first tried Live during Version 2, but at that time I mostly needed to record multiple audio tracks, and Live couldn't do it. I was really bummed because I wanted to use it for the stuff I was working on. I had to wait until Version 3.

A simple live sequencing instrument is cool, but I'd rather have an app that could fill my every audio need, AND be a spankin' live instrument too.

[kb420]

Hey headquest, I didn't read the whole thread, but I would like to comment on one thing that you said about the loop (warping) quality. You have Sonar 5 PE, as I do. If you want better loop (warping) quality, why don't you try upgrading to Sonar 6. They have several different algorhythms for warping audio, and because Sonar uses the 64 bit float, I would have to assume that the results are probably better. That's probably the best reason to upgrade along with the new channel strip plug in.

I love Live for it's ability to get an idea going fast. If you think that your songs done in Live are easily distinguishable, then maybe you should try a different approach. Use the arrangement view to compose. That's pretty much the way that any other DAW works. The session view is what makes Live unique.

Sonar and Live make a good combination. I really don't like composing in Sonar, but I do love mixing with it. I find that different software/hardware gives me different results. If I come up with an idea and put it in the Mo, it will sound a lot different than if I try the same idea in Project 5V2. The way I go about bringing that idea to fruition yields different results. Maybe you just need a change of pace.

Just my $.02.

[glu]

A simple live sequencing instrument is cool, but I'd rather have an app that could fill my every audio need, AND be a spankin' live instrument too.

I think live has and will continue to move in two main directions:

1. Live control of sounds, fx, loops, etc for performers and djs, hardware junkies, nerds.etc..
2. daw capabilities-directly integrated with all the other facets of live, hence the session and arranger views... and features to convert other DAW users, which is always an integral part of having a successful business.

Then there is the "all in one solution" benefit.
I don't know..@ the original poster, perhaps L7 will be the redeeming version for you. I just have a feeling the Abes have something huge they are working at, I just hope that doesn't materialize into another pay-for instrument...

[jamester]

I hope there's no new instruments, just updates/improvements of Impulse and Simpler. I'm hoping L7 focuses on simply getting it right. Not much bells and whistles, but improvements and refinements. Like track folders. And the edit button!

[v00d00ppl]

i am an abe fanboy, but to all thse people who posted complaints, you huys made a good argument. even i have to admit that. yea, i am also upset at their pricing because for 499 retail you only get the program itselft without ooperator or sampler or eic........so for 599, you can get eic with the program.......but for 200 more you get sampler...........making your total to 700 and after that is another 150 for operator makuing the final total 850.

i guess the reason why decided to do that was to see how much people really need those virtual instruments.

[forge]

i think if u look at the front cover of the live 6 and live 1 boxes u will notice that they are a perfect metaphor for the differences between the original concepts and where it's at now.

he he - yeah true - that bug splat thing on v6 says "complicated" - I've always hated it

I actually totally see the points - the "run before you can walk" comment from a different poster I can see the sense to and why it could appear that way to some

but I'm not even saying it so much for bugginess, more I guess in line with what Hoffman said - marketing setting the bar too high too soon so that expectations are now for a full DAW

the "real piano"thing is key here for the OP though - for me I have really been finding the DAW side lacking since I've been doing more real instruments and recording

for "electronic music" Live has always been the best suited IMO, because that was always the core driving scene behind it

But live still has a fair way to go before it can adequately compete on the DAW front - there are just too many problems with that - especially because it then invites people who want more of a multitracker, and the performance hit is very noticable there - ask Josh VOn for more info!

I totally agree with hoffman - I used to always love describing it to people as "sequencer instrument" - that used to always be the key selling point