Apple to kill Pro Tools soon?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Machinate
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Re: Apple to kill Pro Tools soon?

Post by Machinate » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:34 am

Shoma wrote:Apple's current production suite, Logic has always enjoyed a solid reputation, but merely as a mid-range professional solution, with Pro-tools being alone at the top.
That's such a load of bs, to be honest.

I .switched to Live for the instrument paradigm, but Logic rips ProTools to shreds if you ask me.

Now, if we focus on "reputation", then yes, you might be right, much like macs have a reputation among certain people for being "the only thing good enough for pro audio". Well, as we all know the world isn't as simple. Thankfully.

From my experience many of the pros who actually use pro tools have chosen that over Logic *purely* because it has a "more pro" rep., not because of usability or feature set. I dunno, maybe they just like paying more by a factor of 10 for their plugins?

... [/rant]
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SubFunk
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Post by SubFunk » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:45 am

james Egan wrote:Question for pro tools users out there- What can you do in Pro Tools that you can't do in Live. I'm just curiuos.

Jamie
you simply can't compare those two at all, live is foremost a creation tool and PT is foremost a recording tool, i want to see someone tracking a 20 mic recording [simultaniously] with live and then editing it quick and comfortebly, like you can in PT easy [that's what it is there for in the first place

or on the other hand creating sample/loopedbased music or performing live with PT like you can in live, that what THIS is there for in the first place

they are two totally different pair of shoes!!!
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SubFunk
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Re: Apple to kill Pro Tools soon?

Post by SubFunk » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:46 am

Machinate wrote:
Shoma wrote:Apple's current production suite, Logic has always enjoyed a solid reputation, but merely as a mid-range professional solution, with Pro-tools being alone at the top.
That's such a load of bs, to be honest.

I .switched to Live for the instrument paradigm, but Logic rips ProTools to shreds if you ask me.

Now, if we focus on "reputation", then yes, you might be right, much like macs have a reputation among certain people for being "the only thing good enough for pro audio". Well, as we all know the world isn't as simple. Thankfully.

From my experience many of the pros who actually use pro tools have chosen that over Logic *purely* because it has a "more pro" rep., not because of usability or feature set. I dunno, maybe they just like paying more by a factor of 10 for their plugins?

... [/rant]
i personally think as well that logic rips PT into pieces. DEFENITELY!!
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rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:51 am

It would be right move for them. Steinberg has a lot of success with Nuendo which is very popular replacement for Protools all over in Europe ( that top of the top PT thing is just US, in Europe along with Nuendo , Samplitude is really big in top pro market, specially broadcasting ) Post production houses and similar is a serious market. If Apple get it right, and I suppose they will, both Steinberg and PT may really worry.
The big clients will sty with Avid /PT because they are standard since years, and AVid is really excellent but smaller companies may find Finalcut/ New Logic good enough for thier needs.
Last edited by rikhyray on Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NorthernMonkey
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Post by NorthernMonkey » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:52 am

The professionals that I've spoken to generally use a combination of the two just to get the job done, not because one is better than the other.
..?

edge100
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Post by edge100 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:31 pm

james Egan wrote:Question for pro tools users out there- What can you do in Pro Tools that you can't do in Live. I'm just curiuos.

Jamie
Track through plugins with (nearly) no latency. THAT is why PT (HD, not LE) is popular.
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leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:35 pm

There are studios which run Sequoia/Samplitude or Nuendo and prefer to do so, but they almost exclusively still run a ProTools HD suite because they cannot afford not to. Many pro engineers and producers hate PT HD and prefer analog or the RADAR system by Otari, as used by Daniel Lanois (producer of U2, Peter Gabriel, Bob Dylan and many others)

Yes, I understand about having PTLE or M-Powered making it easier to transfer a project into PT HD - if this wasn´t the case, neither of these programs would exist, even Reaper a 40 dollar program offers more features and functionality than PTLE or M-Powered.

The PT gui absolutely BLOWS chunks imho, give me ANYTHING else.... even Sonar or Tracktion (which I feel both have terrible, cluttered interfaces although they are decent programs).

Anyway, programs such as Digital Performer have SDII files with timestamps that line up in PT, so importing those audio tracks into PT HD is fine (the complication comes in the shape of plugins for mixing etc).

muscleandhate
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Post by muscleandhate » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:52 pm

leedsquietman wrote:
The only thing that has kept them in business is the Ipod and now sales of their laptops and imacs has picked up slightly on the back of this but they´re not exactly pulling up trees...
Indeed, Apples notebook sales have made iPod sales look like a drop in the bucket. Apple were smart in their approach to the market by releasing an appealing mp3 player that generated brand recognition for their other products (i.e. iMacs and MacBooks). Apple are essentially appealing to the mass market of young consumers, take a look at iLife on the Apple website for example. However, to expand on my earlier point, whilst Apple are trying to secure a larger market share at the base consumer level, I personally feel that they have the upper hand when it comes to specialised products designed at a certain market demographic. Manufacturers such as Dell, who exist on economies of scale, are unlikely to to commit themselves into the R&D of developing a multi-control surface notebook specially designed for graphic designers or indeed, a computer that bridges the gap between software and hardware for sound producers. Whereas Apple, probably will.

nonnus
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Post by nonnus » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:41 pm

just hope they ditch the xskey thingy... :evil:

i don´t understand how they still use it on logic
as they don´t use it in any other of their pro apps

why only logic customers are harassed by that evil stuff ???
aren´t they the most exposed ones about losing the key while they play somewhre or go to studio, or...

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:13 pm

I always thought ProTools was called ProTools cos it was for pro tools.

Anyone here use Ardour? It's supposedly as good as PT if what you need is to record/edit audio with no plugins.

-Paws
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Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

edge100
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Post by edge100 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:26 pm

noisetonepause wrote:I always thought ProTools was called ProTools cos it was for pro tools.

Anyone here use Ardour? It's supposedly as good as PT if what you need is to record/edit audio with no plugins.

-Paws
I dont use Ardour, but, as I've said earlier, the number one reason people use PT (besides compatibility with other people) is that PT HD systems allow you to track through plugins with VERY low latency. No native system except the new Apogee Symphony/Logic system allows this.

PT HD is the closest thing you can get to using a 2" tape machine and outboard effects (in terms of signal flow/latency, not sonically). For real "pro" users tracking top-flight musicians, latency needs to be in the same range as that acheived with outboard (namely, in the 1-2ms range, round-trip). Native DAWs can't get close to this (again, the Symphony system excluded).

The software isn't the reason people use PT; it's the hardware.
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Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:52 pm

edge100 wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:I always thought ProTools was called ProTools cos it was for pro tools.

Anyone here use Ardour? It's supposedly as good as PT if what you need is to record/edit audio with no plugins.

-Paws
I dont use Ardour, but, as I've said earlier, the number one reason people use PT (besides compatibility with other people) is that PT HD systems allow you to track through plugins with VERY low latency. No native system except the new Apogee Symphony/Logic system allows this.

PT HD is the closest thing you can get to using a 2" tape machine and outboard effects (in terms of signal flow/latency, not sonically). For real "pro" users tracking top-flight musicians, latency needs to be in the same range as that acheived with outboard (namely, in the 1-2ms range, round-trip). Native DAWs can't get close to this (again, the Symphony system excluded).

The software isn't the reason people use PT; it's the hardware.
It's true that PT offers low latency, but PT was king when latency was an issue as well.
The software has been designed with audio in mind, Logic, DP, and Cubase were designed as linear MIDI sequencers, and audio was added later. It still shows.
You still can write a song faster in a traditional DAW than in PT, but PT has shortcuts and workflow designed with 35-60 year old engineers who track rock bands in mind.
That there is the reason it's funny to me that Logic or Live get brought up as competition. Live and Logic, Sonar etc. are all composing environments with multi-tracking rock bands an add on feature.

subbasshead
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Post by subbasshead » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 pm

this LIVE vs ProTools argument is about as worthwhile as a Mac vs PC one
simply cos people keep making statements with no context...

Apple might well come out with something that gives ProTools LE a run
for its money (for a little while) but it wont compete with PT HD - u will
need more than a Mac & some software to do that...

ProTools is like Photoshop - its been around for a long time & has evolved
as its users have evolved... a tool is only as good as its user & some noob
dabbling with ProTools wont even be aware of a massive amount of what
makes ProTools so powerful, the same way that a noob using Photoshop
can crop & alter an image but in the end its as deep as the user's experience...

One very important thing that ProTools has over LIVE (or Logic)
is scalability - the fact that I can work on a laptop PT LE system
& then walk next door & boot up the same session on a 192 track 5.1
ProTools HD system is not a subtle difference... Studios know this
because they have to operate a 99% reliable system or they are in deep shit....
People who work at home in their own personal studios may well not need this
but maybe they also shouldnt make blanket statements about things they have
no experience with, unless they dont mind coming off sounding totally naive...

There are literally many hundreds of specific features that ProTools has that
LIVE doesnt, that you wont appreciate unless you have used them enough
to appreciate why they are there... a few simple examples:
- 5.1 panning, busing & stem management
- mixer automation as powerful as any high end console
- key commands & shortcuts that have evolved over the last decade

This last one is crucial if you actually work professionally rather than
work in just your own studio - i know i can program Quickeys etc to get
around the lack of keyboard shortcuts in LIVE (well soem fo them) but
(a) I shouldnt have to and
(b) what happens when i go work in another studio that doesnt have Quickeys?
Many of the shortcuts in ProTools are esoteric or even worthless to a noob
but if you spend 60+ hours a week in that environment then you soon
learn to appreciate the differences.

Having a 'pro rep' is earned - it doesnt happen thru marketing despite
what some people might like to think

[/quote]

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:41 pm

You state some good points and the latency thing is also true to a point although saying you need 1-2 ms latency to accurately track is a little bit overestimated, hell, hardware synths typically have a 4-5 ms latency when you press a key. So long as your latency is less than 10 ms (in and out combined so 5ms setting on your audio card, ie 128 samples) many wouldn´t notice the difference, even the PT HD system has some latency albeit a teeny bit less than a traditional PCI interface set to like 64 samples or something on a very powerful setup.

No-one was claiming instability with PT HD or the fact that it has a lot of features, especially with regard to audio - people were merely stating that the cost is astronomical, there are professional DAWS out there such as Sequoia, Nuendo, SAWstudio Pro and Radar which feature as many (and usually more) features, which when combined with top rate pres and audio interfaces offer as much (if not more) than PT HD for less money. Yes, PT built up a reputation that put them at the top but that was mostly established in the 90´s when they still needed to put some effort in, since then the performance, pricing and evolution is at least open to debate.

Ditto PTLE and M-Powered yes, their obvious advantage is the fact that you can import the project into PT HD but PTLE and M-Powered are so lacking in features, offer a very low track count and very meagre MIDI options that you either need to rewire something like Live or Reason into it to make it functional as a MIDI composing tool, the RTAS plugins are very restricting in availability compared to vst and it terms of value for money ... well, I think the pricing should be lower.

If all I had was PTLE etc, my music would suffer greatly, low track count, low plugin count (unless you drop a bunch of money on ´bombpakz´or whatever), very ordinary USB audio interface with very ordinary pres, lack of real time mixing control / automation, lack of powerful MIDI editing and lots more things I take for granted in Cubase SX3 and even Live 6.

BTW ´saying that Logic, DP and Cubase/Nuendo come from MIDI so their audio sucks may have been true 5 or 6 years ago but all of these have been rebuilt and all of them with an emphasis on audio' - the audio is no longer just a 'tacked on' extra. Cubase 4 for example is introducing MIDI things that have been absent ever since VST5.1 which was a MIDI app with tacked on audio because the MIDI in the SX series (esp SX1) was severely lacking what had been in VST, as the whole app was totally rebuilt from scratch but the audio engine was much, much better as a result.

Besides, the audio engines and summing are all so close that it´s mostly plugins, pan law settings and mastering that make the difference in this respect.

It would be good for ProTools to have to compete, it would be great for Protools users to see Nuendo and Sequoia etc grab a bigger slice of the pie that way Digidesign/Avid would have to make PT more feature rich or reduce costs to stay competitive. And give engineers and musicians some choice instead of being drones to Digidesign through default.

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Post by Thinktanx » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:00 pm

Machinesworking wrote: It's true that PT offers low latency, but PT was king when latency was an issue as well.
The software has been designed with audio in mind, Logic, DP, and Cubase were designed as linear MIDI sequencers, and audio was added later. It still shows.
You still can write a song faster in a traditional DAW than in PT, but PT has shortcuts and workflow designed with 35-60 year old engineers who track rock bands in mind.
That there is the reason it's funny to me that Logic or Live get brought up as competition. Live and Logic, Sonar etc. are all composing environments with multi-tracking rock bands an add on feature.
This is exactly right. It's apples and oranges.

Another market that most fail to recognize is the post-production market. Pro Tools is king here, with no competition in sight. Mind you, I'm not talking about composing here, I'm talking about editing and mixing for film, TV, video games, etc. That makes up a huge percentage of Digidesign's consumer base, but it is often hardly recognized on forums like this one, for obvious reasons.

I love Live, it has completely revolutionized the way I write music. Hate Pro Tools, in general, but there is still no other program that can edit audio the way PT can. And to the guy who said 'that's it?' to track/fader grouping... come talk to me next time you are mixing a session with 40, 50, even 80-some odd tracks. I would give anything to see this added to Live.
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