How to disable Mr. Ugly Warp completely??

[hoffman2k]

Well I just tried it again with another wav file and I get the same odd behaviour. I've got 6.05 on Win XP SP2.

In fact, you can get it to misbehave on my system by pressing Hi-Q button a few times.

Is this a fault of the warp engine, or a problem with delay compensation? Who knows, but maybe it sheds some light on why people are hearing a difference. After all if we're all telling them to put a clip into beats mode, and its actually in complex, then its no wonder they can hear something.

I can't give you video proof. But I have found that I can save the naughty song, shut down live, open it again, and reload the song. And the problem is just there as you left it. In other words, rebooting Live doesn't cure the fault, so the unusual settings are stored in the live set.

This wouldn't at all be odd..
Some button states had the exact opposite behaviour up until a few beta's ago.
For example, make a rack with gate plugins in Live 6.02. Turn on the "flip" button and save preset.
This didn't work. But its fixed now.
The same thing happened with the simpler and pitch values.

The point is: You cant dismiss a scenario because its illogical. Shit DOES happen.

[dj superflat]

i give up, i'll trust rick's ears -- because of their enormous size, classical training, education beyond elementary, etc. -- over phase cancellation tests.

[Heinz Graaf]

i give up, i'll trust rick's ears -- because of their enormous size, classical training, education beyond elementary, etc. -- over phase cancellation tests.

but there is no difference. if you record an audio file and then when ableton warps that clip, it is exactly the same as when you have recorded it. I hear no difference with my ears when bouncing 37 times and phaze cancellation excists so thats two times proove for you. if you import a clip and warp it, the difference is there but for a recorded clip.. NONE! I think those warp points are visible but they are not doing aything (they are inactive) until you move one warp point, i think then they become active. i see no other explanation really.. I have auto warp in preferences set to BEAT by the way.. Maybe you folks are using another setting?

[dj superflat]

dude, that was sarcasm. i do not trust anyone's ears on issues like this, only repeatable, verifiable, falsifiable tests like phase cancellation. that's not to say that i discount the possibility that with (e.g.) 50 tracks running warp something odd happens (could be interplay of sample rate and warp and burden on CPU, whatever).

i'd just like proof, not idle chatter. and references to resume impress me not at all, in part because there's all sorts of folk here with real resumes who nonetheless don't throw them around. put another way, if you're trying to rely on your resume, it's generally pretty deficient, because otherwise we'd already know who you are.

[Synthbuilder]

The point is: You cant dismiss a scenario because its illogical. Shit DOES happen.

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm trying to understand why some people think they can hear a difference while the simple phase test reveals there is no problem.

However, I have repeatedly tested tonight that there is a problem with the relationship in two identical tracks when the warp engine is switched on and off.

I have sent a small version of my track to the Abes to see what they say. It may well be my system, but I can repeatedly cause the phase test to deliver non null outputs on any wav files.

So this raises two important points:

1. The audio engine is fallible. ie. its not just a case of 1+1 anymore. In my copy of 6.05 we are getting significant errors when the warp engine is engaged and disengaged.

2. That people may be hearing other defects and not the warp engine itself. But warp is getting the blame because they can hear a difference when they turn it on and off. What they could be hearing is the unusual error that I have found.

I am aware that this program is not bug free. But I would like to know what its faults are.

[dancerchris]

This is just idiotic. If I click my mouse in my application a 100 times something weird happens. No duh. Any software can have wierd bugs like that including MS crud. The question was whether or not warp distorts the audio. LM has done the testing to prove his point.

People with golden ears often don't realize that the room acoustics can cause dramaticly different acoustic spectrum response by a change of position of as little as 1 inch even in well treated rooms. (Comb filtering a big culprit.) A good read on this is http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
Therefore someone saying they heard something is just BS until they can back it up by measurements.

Good Job LM!

[hoffman2k]

The point is: You cant dismiss a scenario because its illogical. Shit DOES happen.

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm trying to understand why some people think they can hear a difference while the simple phase test reveals there is no problem.

However, I have repeatedly tested tonight that there is a problem with the relationship in two identical tracks when the warp engine is switched on and off.

I have sent a small version of my track to the Abes to see what they say. It may well be my system, but I can repeatedly cause the phase test to deliver non null outputs on any wav files.

So this raises two important points:

1. The audio engine is fallible. ie. its not just a case of 1+1 anymore. In my copy of 6.05 we are getting significant errors when the warp engine is engaged and disengaged.

2. That people may be hearing other defects and not the warp engine itself. But warp is getting the blame because they can hear a difference when they turn it on and off. What they could be hearing is the unusual error that I have found.

I am aware that this program is not bug free. But I would like to know what its faults are.

Same here, I'm not picking either side.
I'm looking for some clarity in a thread that has gone on too long.
People keep attacking Leisure with nothing more then a resume.
All he did is try to proove his point.

There obviously is a problem here. And I'm in agreement with you that it must be one of those "odd glitches". Nonetheless, if people just tell each other to fudge off. We'll never solve anything.

So lets recap:

A common thing in threads on this subject, is the fact that people talk about different results.

The only result that has been "proven" is the phase cancelation. Which for most people ends the topic.

There are people that hear different results. They tested it on high-end equipment. And have yet to provide some recordings.

Most people dont ever posts their settings into the very detail.
Plugin-buffer, PDC on-off, amount of tracks, soundcard,....
So we cant cross-reference each other.

Basically, as with any bug that we discuss in length, we should collaborate on a bigger scale. Its not the way to get things done. But it is a sure way to the attention of people other then customer support.
We all know that the only way to make an Ableton developer talk, is to get very very technical.

Personally I cant help much with this issue, since I cant reproduce it.
But i'm willing to help, even provide webspace if something needs hosting.
I know there is a problem, because I've read too many reports. And frankly, this thread speaks for itself.

It's either a very odd bug. (Its not the warping, it could be related to it. But there's nothing wrong with Abletons algorithms)
Or its user error on a grand scale, which seems highly unlikely. Since those very users seem to be more then qualified to be taken seriously.

Anyway, I'll withdraw from this thread until I can verify anything.
Like I said, weirder things then this bug have occured in the past.
Nobody should be proven wrong or right here, we just need to be able to cross reference some results. Collaborate on a beta test of a specific feature. And make a final conclussion. And get it fixed, whatever may be wrong.
Then post it in the WIKI and never speak of it again!

[Josh Von]

Gentlemen I am about to throw a large spanner in the works. And unfortunately, this is not good news to those who say that Live's warp engine has no effect.

I have discovered a very odd set of behaviour in Live working with two identical stereo wavs in two tracks in the arrange window.

I pasted two whole songs of mine into each track. I inverted one and played them both back. Silence.

I turned warp on in one track using beat mode. Silence. Ah, just what we wanted, but I carried on...

I set warp to complex. Not silence but an odd phasing effect.

I set warp back to beats. Silence again.

Back to complex and the wacky phasing effect.

Then back to beats. Silence.

Then to complex. Silence. Hang on - what's with that??? I thought complex gave me the phasey noise.

Turned back to beats mode. No null and the track can be heard again. Uh-oh, this should give me phase cancellation.

This time I repeated my actions but for each stage I stopped the track before changing the warp. The actual weird behaviour is not repeatable - but some sort of weird behaviour is possible when switching between warps and switching warp on and off.

As I write this, I am listening to my song with both tracks with the warp engine off and still hearing the music. ie, there is no absolute null. Even with warp off in both tracks.

Something fishy here for sure.

None of this suprises me one bit

This is yet one more example of a thread that shows up something really odd about some people that use this product:

Its almost an evangelical denial among some users - that Live could be anything but 100% reliable, predicatable, superior and beyond approach.

People can attack, curse, hurl insults, patronize, and spend hours trying to assuage thier egos to prove a point.

Others of us simply state our experience and give an opinion, then move on to something else. Personally I know what would probably be involved in proving my point:

That warping - in aggregate - is one of the root causes behind the perception that Live does something unusual to audio quality, and the widespread perception that the audio quality is not up to the standards of other DAWs

Its way to much trouble then I have time for. My nerd factor only goes so high.

However - I am sure this is only one example of 'proof' that there are bugs / odd behaviors / unpredictable results that affect audio quality in Live, because I sit here and work on all kinds of projects for myself and clients day in and day out

.... and that is the way this program is. Its quirky. Next time I come acrost an example that I can quickly (within a half hour) come up with a solid experimental scenario and post the results, I will

.

[Tone Deft]

Josh, I think people are asking for screenshots, .als files or tests. Your point is valid but I'm starting to worry about .lm.'s blood pressure.

[Josh Von]

Your point is valid but I'm starting to worry about .lm.'s blood pressure.

hahah .. then it worked!


My job here is done

.

[dj superflat]

i totally sympathize, because i'm one of the suckers who initially had warp mode set to "complex" -- because i thought complex, more CPU obviously had to be better -- only to be confused as to why it was affecting the quality of loops played back at same tempo as recorded. so i've been asking for looping without warp -- if possible -- for a long time.

so if we're really just talking re whether there are confusing aspects to live that need to be sorted, i agree. perhaps we jumped the gun on this, but there have also been really far too many threads about whether warping alone at same tempo changes audio, which it doesn't in beats. that's not to say that user setup or CPU load may not change the basic principle, and i'd be happy to have ableton or the forum sort this out.

but a lot of times it seems like folk just are using the "wrong" warp mode -- no real reason they should know it's wrong -- and blaming warp generally rather than the specific mode they are using. and the folk who say, well, i trust my ears, i'm not proving anything aren't helping, because they leave those interested with no way to respond or look into the issue. so it's not silly partyline belief in ableton, it's generally focus on what people are really talking about, what we can talk about based on what we know. i need to shut up now.

[Amaury]

Hi all,

Just to clarify things as we hear A and Z in that thread. Here is what I understand from what I read:

-most people have found that phases cancel when using Beat or Repitch (they do in tone and Texture too in my experience) Warp mode, when no time stretching is involved, and the same unwarped clip is playing on the other track with phases inverted.

-Longjohns has found a problem when starting the two clips, one having a follow action ON set to 'play again'. Starting the two clips with the space bar gives a different result than starting the scene where the two clips are. Read his post again if you want to reproduce the issue.

-Synthbuilder has found another issue: While the transport is running, playing two clips on two track with a Utility to invert phases on one of the tracks, one clip is warped at the set's tempo and the other one is not - changing the warp mode while the clips are playing gives unpredictable results. when stopping and starting over the transport, everything gets back in the right (expected) behaviour. I believe that swapping warp mode is a complex operation for the engine, and is unlikely to affect anyone. But that will be looked at of course.

these two behaviours are certainly an issue, though I'm quite sure (but that will be 'proved' by more technical people) that it is a matter of '1 sample late' or the like. And I am not sure that this affects the life of musicians in a real world.

Let me know if we are talking about something else here, and what are the findings? I'm not giving any technical statement but try to understand what we are talking about.

Quality is one of our main concerns and be sure that everything is looked at and studied in depth. there is no quick conclusion made (other than by me here ), and no 'general confusion' as some seem to think.

I would say don't waste too much time trying to make tests as these are quite a huge task to achieve, if you want the real ones - beyond phase cancellation. I mean, if you intend to make music... I mean, do as you wish...

Kind regards,
Amaury

[Synthbuilder]

While the transport is running, playing two clips on two track with a Utility to invert phases on one of the tracks, one clip is warped at the set's tempo and the other one is not - changing the warp mode while the clips are playing gives unpredictable results. when stopping and starting over the transport, everything gets back in the right (expected) behaviour.

Hi Amaury,

I sent support a small example set showing the problem last night. The problem is that the effect appears to be accumalitive and permanent. In other words, you can actually stop and start the track and the problem still persists. It doesn't get reset on track stop or start.

In fact, you can save the track and re-open it and the problem is still there.

[Amaury]

While the transport is running, playing two clips on two track with a Utility to invert phases on one of the tracks, one clip is warped at the set's tempo and the other one is not - changing the warp mode while the clips are playing gives unpredictable results. when stopping and starting over the transport, everything gets back in the right (expected) behaviour.

Hi Amaury,

I sent support a small example set showing the problem last night. The problem is that the effect appears to be accumalitive and permanent. In other words, you can actually stop and start the track and the problem still persists. It doesn't get reset on track stop or start.

In fact, you can save the track and re-open it and the problem is still there.

Hi,

Strange enough: in my case, the problem vanishes if I stop the transport and restart it. Are you doing this test in arrange or in session view?
Good thing you sent that to support, they'll investigate and involve the right developers.

Regards,
Amaury

[Tone Deft]

What version of Live are people using?