Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[Machinesworking]

[
In this thread, to say you liked the film would be to say you think conventional religion is flawed.

C'mon Machinesworking...I didn't like the film (though I agree...the cinematography was stunning), c'est tout. And we agree, conventional religion IS flawed. There's not enough space in this text blog to begin to describe the flaws. But it's flawed, in similar ways, that many systems i.e. families, organizations, citites, appear to be.

and that has been my point all along, that in my personal experience, no group, organization or ideology has determined the mental health and ethical behavior of an individual.
basically all that stuff, atheist, agnostic, religious etc. is just to me a part of a person's armor, their outward projected self. The ethics and morals of the individual to me seem to be determined more by their family, and environment emotionally than their stance on religion.

[Tone Deft]

[
In this thread, to say you liked the film would be to say you think conventional religion is flawed.

C'mon Machinesworking...I didn't like the film (though I agree...the cinematography was stunning), c'est tout. And we agree, conventional religion IS flawed. There's not enough space in this text blog to begin to describe the flaws. But it's flawed, in similar ways, that many systems i.e. families, organizations, citites, appear to be.

and that has been my point all along, that in my personal experience, no group, organization or ideology has determined the mental health and ethical behavior of an individual.
basically all that stuff, atheist, agnostic, religious etc. is just to me a part of a person's armor, their outward projected self. The ethics and morals of the individual to me seem to be determined more by their family, and environment emotionally than their stance on religion.

So we're social lemmings? I don't think you're articulating your point here, I totally disagree but feel that you're making a different point. Would you say the same thing for yourself? Your viewpoints are based on your family and environment and your inability to think for yourself? Not me.

[BoimB son of BoB]

did i miss something here?

probably i misread this one.

Boring-ass services, clergy who misuse their power, mis-spent funds, obnoxious expense on capital expenditures, and on and on and on. But not so different than any other organization.

Have you finally turned your back on religion?

no he probably did not. but acknowledges the fact that in every organization authority/power and trust can be corrupted by the wrong people.

[NorthernMonkey]

C'mon Machinesworking...I didn't like the film (though I agree...the cinematography was stunning), c'est tout. And we agree, conventional religion IS flawed. There's not enough space in this text blog to begin to describe the flaws. But it's flawed, in similar ways, that many systems i.e. families, organizations, citites, appear to be.

and that has been my point all along, that in my personal experience, no group, organization or ideology has determined the mental health and ethical behavior of an individual.
basically all that stuff, atheist, agnostic, religious etc. is just to me a part of a person's armor, their outward projected self. The ethics and morals of the individual to me seem to be determined more by their family, and environment emotionally than their stance on religion.

So we're social lemmings? I don't think you're articulating your point here, I totally disagree but feel that you're making a different point. Would you say the same thing for yourself? Your viewpoints are based on your family and environment and your inability to think for yourself? Not me.

Yes! We're all individuals!

[shtreimel]

Would you say the same thing for yourself? Your viewpoints are based on your family and environment and your inability to think for yourself? Not me.

Perhaps you're a bigger man than I. On the other hand, I'm humbled and respect the fact that 'isms exists, and they shape our lives. So the question isn't do 'isms exist, but rather which 'ism(s) do you allow into your life.

[NorthernMonkey]

Would you say the same thing for yourself? Your viewpoints are based on your family and environment and your inability to think for yourself? Not me.

Perhaps you're a bigger man than I. On the other hand, I'm humbled and respect the fact that 'isms exists, and they shape our lives. So the question isn't do 'isms exist, but rather which 'ism(s) do you allow into your life.

http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/ism/

Take your pick.

[Machinesworking]

C'mon Machinesworking...I didn't like the film (though I agree...the cinematography was stunning), c'est tout. And we agree, conventional religion IS flawed. There's not enough space in this text blog to begin to describe the flaws. But it's flawed, in similar ways, that many systems i.e. families, organizations, citites, appear to be.

and that has been my point all along, that in my personal experience, no group, organization or ideology has determined the mental health and ethical behavior of an individual.
basically all that stuff, atheist, agnostic, religious etc. is just to me a part of a person's armor, their outward projected self. The ethics and morals of the individual to me seem to be determined more by their family, and environment emotionally than their stance on religion.

So we're social lemmings? I don't think you're articulating your point here, I totally disagree but feel that you're making a different point. Would you say the same thing for yourself? Your viewpoints are based on your family and environment and your inability to think for yourself? Not me.

Depends on what you consider to be more important, nature or nurture. To me nurture is at the least 99% of the game. What astonishes me is that people actually consider genetics or nature as somehow less of a threat to their sense of individuality? At least to me that's how you're reading on this.
The thing is though nurture is a flexible commodity, people can acknowledge the effects of their environment and change patterns of behavior, but if you believe that nature or genetics controls the choices you make, then a person is doomed from birth to suffer their aggravations.
Back to the topic. I know that the flexibility that my parents had with the subject of religion led me to make my own choices about what I believed and what I did not. A good friend of mine who is a born again christian republican watched his father oscillate between being a drunken coke addict screw up and a born again republican. So in my mind he made the better choice. I've never tried to convert him to atheism, because I do not think he can see any joy in it, his fear that atheism for him would lead to crack and debauchery is very real. Whereas at some point in his life it's possible his dad settles into sobriety, and god....
Now because we are capable of changing our patterns, we do owe responsibility for our actions. Nurture doesn't forgive Hitler, serial killers, and child abusers; it just explains the process.

[Tone Deft]

Nice list northernmonkey, I'll take secularism, thank you.

Depends on what you consider to be more important, nature or nurture. To me nurture is at the least 99% of the game. What astonishes me is that people actually consider genetics or nature as somehow less of a threat to their sense of individuality? At least to me that's how you're reading on this.
The thing is though nurture is a flexible commodity, people can acknowledge the effects of their environment and change patterns of behavior, but if you believe that nature or genetics controls the choices you make, then a person is doomed from birth to suffer their aggravations.
Back to the topic. I know that the flexibility that my parents had with the subject of religion led me to make my own choices about what I believed and what I did not.
...
Now because we are capable of changing our patterns, we do owe responsibility for our actions. Nurture doesn't forgive Hitler, serial killers, and child abusers; it just explains the process.

"You cannot go against nature
because when you do
go against nature
it's part of nature too"
- Love and Rockets

It's like refusing to use music theory, but that's also a theory.

Anyway, I disagree. I learned at a young age that my parents are assholes, my dad's a brainwashed guilt ridden son of a farmer who had religion beaten into him. My mom, strangely never had to go to church with us and has no conviction about religion, she says she a christian when she needs to, denies it when some people aren't around. She's not very bright, just mean spirited (I am a son of a bitch). I can't say either of them taught me a thing about religion, they just threw me into sunday school, and youth group and into bible camps. I told them in junior high that I was sick of their advice and I wanted to make my own mistakes (my mom still whines about that, the jackass). I recognised that they led lives I had no interest in and pretty much had their heads up their asses (fearful conservative whitewashed suburban lemmings). I've done well with my life and am a good person. Nurture doesn't work for me coming from them, to this day they're destructive in my life and I consciously separate them out from my real life. Nurture through my wife and positive people in my life, yes they effect me. I believe in following what MY nature leads me to be, 'to thine own self be true.' You can't go wrong.

Genetics as a threat to individuality? Doomed? You don't make a case for that. Nature vs. nurture isn't genetics, it's your nature or true being vs. your surroundings, internal vs. external effects. I guess people tie genetics to your nature, I tie nurture to your soul or spirit or whatever you want to call that thing that is you. That's my take, at least.

We have to be responsible for our actions, of course. Nurture forgiving people? That's an anthropomorphic leap in logic.

I'm waking up slowly today, hope I made some sense...

[mathew]

hay gusy wots going on in this here fred?

[djadonis206]

if there was a god, he wouldn't allow big fat white girls to date really skinny black guys

there is no god

if there was a god, he would allow big fat white girls to admit on national tv that the babies possibly arent the skinny little black guys kids

there is no god

if there was a god, he would allow the paternity test...wait here come the results

freddy, in the case of 3 year old makala, you are NOT the daddy - fat white girls storms off stage, skinny black guy cries on national tv

wait, we've got one more kid

there is no god

ok, here we go...skinny black guy told fat white girl not to touch him

we've got one more

in the case of 1 year old kalib, Freddy you are NOT the dad

skinny black guy storms off stage

lots of bleeping

no god, no hope

[NorthernMonkey]

Nice list northernmonkey, I'll take secularism, thank you.

After careful consideration, I've decided to stick with hedonism.

[Tone Deft]

Nice list northernmonkey, I'll take secularism, thank you.

After careful consideration, I've decided to stick with hedonism.

in the butt.

[Machinesworking]

I'm waking up slowly today, hope I made some sense...

Nope, not trying to be rude, but we're crossing wires here.
Nature= genetics DNA etc. as in serial killers are the way they are because they are born without a conscience. Hitler was predisposed from birth to be a hateful man.

Nurture= All the things that you were exposed to growing up that make you who you are. Your parents, relatives, teachers, Your neighborhood conditions, (war, famine, luxury...), and peers.

For instance, at some point you decide to reject the hypocrisy of your parents, and probably rightfully look for other role models, and people who are doing things the way you would like to.

Now to me, and a lot of people, both christian and atheist, there is a third element here you touched on, human nature, or the real intent of people. Mankind thrives in cooperation and unity, in compassion and a state of higher ethics etc. If you notice one thing about children, beyond competition etc. it's a desire to be apart of things, to help etc. This to me is our true nature.
The violence and tribalism is misguided and a product of old hurts, it's not who we are.

Anyway, we can escape the patterns of our parents, but the fact remains that most people will have a sore spot about the issues that they challenge of their parents.
For instance you would probably be hard pressed to return to religion, it's I'm sure for the best that you don't. While my friend who is a born again would have a hard time seeing the beauty in atheism, after having a parent reject religion for cocaine and alcohol, basically numbness in regards to family you know? So his psyche sees atheism as cold. Sounds to me like shtreimel would be like my friend in this regard, coming from a secular family that was distant in his own words.

[knotkranky]

Everyone has an option.

There is always a choice. Nobody is stuck. We only think we are.

A mood, a thought, anger, hatred etc. can change in a nano second if we want it to. We are even more powerful than our own genes and upbringing.

There is not one single power that directs a human to do anything.

It's the biggest sell out in human history and why so many hand responsibility to a religion.
They want religion to simply make it better. That doesn't work in the long haul. It hasn't worked too well because
it is too easily exploited by others. This is what happens when you renounce your own power.

The real god (or whatever you want to call it) is the power of your own choice and ideas.

The power to observe oneself is more godly than any external deity.

Everything else is labels, words and metaphors. No spiritual conclusion can be met or especially agreed upon.

To disagree is to only misunderstand the other and that will never change. But that is the nature of tolerance and it is sadly lacking from most religions and people.

There simply isn't that much real love in the main religions.

[Tone Deft]

MW - I see the nature vs. nurture thing as a blunt tool to divide the world into two parts. Nature - you're born into an empty room and grow into that which is within yourself, and nurture - there's only the influences around you. It's a mix.

I tuned my nurture from the parentals to the world around me when I realised I took religion more seriously than they did. I walked that path long after I left the nest and had more interesting 'religious' experiences than I ever knew them to have. My nature was always 'this is not me' but it's important so I stuck with it.

And I'll goddamned well join the church again if I want to. Maybe my own religion, that's where the money is.


KK - Those are the aspects that are interesting in eastern religions. I love the line from the Matrix, in the prophet's waiting room, a kid is bending a spoon with his mind.

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

The nature of being.