Lets talk about sound baby

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:56 am

Hi everybody,

For the people that don't know me: I'v been a vinyl DJ for the past 12 years and have decided to move to the digital domain.

I've waited a long long time until my PC Gateway laptop has finally arrived + the RME RPM A/D/A Convertor. Now I've finally ready to start transferring all my vinyl collection into the computer to work with Live.

However I've encountered a serious problem:

Let me say that I'm a real sound freak. I give great weight to the subtleties of sound and this is why it took me so long to decide to move to digital. Playing Soulful House music, which is based on lots of acoustic instrumentaitions and vocals, the warmth and three dimentionality I get from vinyl is very important for me.

I was very happy to find that when recording vinyl into Sound Forge in 24bit 96kHz (yes, I could definately tell the difference in the sampling rate in a closed eyes, not knowing what's playing, test), via my old Numark PPD DJ Mixer (which has a very nice warm sound) and into the inputs of the RME RPM (Not using the internal phono preamp of the RPM which sucks big time, especially compared to the Numark preamps), I've managed to get a really wonderful sound, the best digital sound I've yet heard, which still lacks a bit of presence and sweetness compared to vinyl, but the difference is pretty small, and I'm willing to compromise on that for all the added possibilities the digital domain allows.

However, after feeling really happy about the degree of presence, sweetness and openness I've managed to achieve, playing the sound back from Sound Forge (and from Acid), I was pretty shocked and terribly dissapointed when I played the same file via Live (no pitchshifting or any other process). It seems that a lot of the tiny details I've managed to achieve spending a lot of money for the best equipment I could get, was just lost in Live as compared to the way the same soundfile sounded in Sound Forge and Acid. It was just less open, less warm and had much less shine.

I really don't want to sound like I'm crazy, I do realise not everybody share my opinion, and I'm sure some people consider these differnces to be of minor importance.

However these subtleties are exactly what makes me enjoy music so much, especially the kind of music that I play. I want to hear the overtones of a great vocal, to enjoy it to the fullest, to be warped inside the warm pool of the percussion and guitar and bass sounds, to be moved by the timbre of the flutes, or the analog warmth of a minimoog solo, or the openess and shine of a brass section. And I'm not talking only at home, but also (and not less) in the club, or in an outside party. If I loose this, I loose a lot of the magic of my sets (and I am talking from 12 years experience).

So - now I'm really confused. I'm not sure what to do. I imagine the real time and HD streaming functions of Live might be a part of the reason it's audio engine has some compromises. But for me, does it mean my dream to be able to mold my music however I want and retrain at least a pretty close sound quality to vinyl, is still not a reality after all?

Maybe Live 4 improves on the audio engine?

I could use Acid in the mean time as it seems to give me a much better sound, but it lacks the live possibilities and possibly other functions.

Any opinions or ideas?

Thanks alot,

Purple

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:59 am

using the warp-engine, sure: small artifacts might be introduced, but without it the audio should be uneffected.

96 kHz is a personal desicion. some plugins sounds best using96 kHz, but in general I prefer 44.1. but as I say, that's personal.

if I were you I would just check out the demo of 4 when it's available!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:07 pm

Thanks raapie,

As I said: I've played the audio using "no pitchshifting or *any other process*". So no wrapping whatsoever. And there is a major difference.

Try it yourself at home. Record and play via a good A/D/A. Play the same file uneffected through Sound Forge or Acid and then through Live. Close your eyes and have a friend play the files without you knowing which one's playing if you're afraif drom physcological influences. However, the difference is big enough to notice in a second, unfortunately..

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:45 pm

Anonymous wrote:Hi everybody,

For the people that don't know me: I'v been a vinyl DJ for the past 12 years and have decided to move to the digital domain.

I was very happy to find that when recording vinyl into Sound Forge in 24bit 96kHz (yes, I could definately tell the difference in the sampling rate in a closed eyes, not knowing what's playing, test), via my old Numark PPD DJ Mixer (which has a very nice warm sound) and into the inputs of the RME RPM (Not using the internal phono preamp of the RPM which sucks big time, especially compared to the Numark preamps), I've managed to get a really wonderful sound, the best digital sound I've yet heard, which still lacks a bit of presence and sweetness compared to vinyl, but the difference is pretty small, and I'm willing to compromise on that for all the added possibilities the digital domain allows.

Purple

I gotta question you on this one.

I own a Numark PPD 9000. The PPD 01 and the PPD 9000 are both DIGITAL mixers that operate at 48KHz. Are you using one of these mixers? If so, I really doubt you get ANY benefit from sampling at 96 KHz. Unless it's another PPD mixer that I am not aware of...

L8er
Montrealbreaks

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:51 pm

Anonymous wrote:Hi everybody,

So - now I'm really confused. I'm not sure what to do. I imagine the real time and HD streaming functions of Live might be a part of the reason it's audio engine has some compromises. But for me, does it mean my dream to be able to mold my music however I want and retrain at least a pretty close sound quality to vinyl, is still not a reality after all?

Maybe Live 4 improves on the audio engine?

Thanks alot,

Purple

But for your other question, if you get good results with Acid or Soundforge, (my mixer question notwithstanding) perhaps there is a difference with the Live audio engine - I know that I prefer Cubase for sound, but the difference to me is minimal...

L8er
Montrealbreaks

Purple · Post by **Purple** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:57 pm

Hi Montrealbreaks,

I'm using an *analog* Numark PPD DM1835X which has a very nice warm, analog sound.

As I said in my post above, I could tell the difference in (several) closed eyes tests between the sampling rates, especially in the vocals and acoustic instruments solos, even the high hats. You can just hear a nicer, sweeter tail. These little things make me enjoy music so much more you see. And IMHO these little things have a real effect in big sound systems as well, of course people would not conciously realise this, but their body would feel it.

But the samping rate is not the main issue here. The diffence in sound between Live and Acid or Sound Forge is much bigger than the difference between 44.1kHz and 96kHz.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:57 pm

Hi Purple,

I was interested in your post so thought I'd try for myself. I've seen a few posts about Live VS Acid sound quality on here before and was intrigued enough to download the Acid demo just now.

I had a listen and this is what my ears told me...

Sound Forge VS Live - No difference

Acid VS Live - No difference

I made sure nothing was looping or warped for both systems.

I cant undertsand why you would hear a major difference. Have you set the default sound quality in Live to 'High'. I'm using Live 2.x and you can set the default audio quality to High or Standard. I always run it in High. I take it your using Live 3, I'm not sure if this feature is in Live 3 but if it is maybe check Quality is set to High.

btw, I couldnt believe thats what Acid looked like. It was the Acid 4 Pro demo I used and the interface compared to Live's just looks really uninspiring and quite archaic.

Well, thats my opinions, hope that helps,

Cheers,

David

robbmasters · Post by **robbmasters** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:04 pm

Robert Henke's post at http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#43955 seems to suggest that what you are experiencing is impossible - i.e. an audio engine (be it Live's, SoundForge's, Acid's, etc.) does NOT affect the sound, as it's simply replaying samples (unless you're timestretching, applying effects or something - which you're not).

So assuming you're not imagining it

I'd be very interested to know the reason for this apparent difference.

Presumably you're using the same soundcard, soundcard settings, etc. and not causing any clipping in Live (which doesn't handle clipping very well)?

Porpy · Post by **Porpy** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:18 pm

is there any chance that you dont have lives sample rate set to 96?

Its in the preferences, Audio tab, under your soundcard settings

regards

Paul Binns

marcelus · Post by **marcelus** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:37 pm

are you sure you're using the same driver mode ?

maybe some drivers are internally using 16 bit for MME
and 24 bit for ASIO (or the oppposite......) ?

just guessing

also no pitchshifting does NOT mean no warp markers !

make REALLY sure "warp" is disabled !!!!!

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:22 pm

are you sure you are using the same preference in Live? Live won't convert the file for you on import.

if you share the file, or a short bit of it, I can check it with Live 3, Wavelab 4, CubaseSX1 and Nuendo 2.2. But they all sound the same to me when I don't change the gain.

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:15 pm

As a joke somebody didn't put the redux plugin in your live default template did they?

pmestrez · Post by **pmestrez** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:18 pm

You got a RME RPM, maybe a SL1200 with ortofon or shure diamond !

Come on boy !

If you don't have a good sound in live, i don't know what you mean by good sound !

1. Try to record with the best input volume without clipping !
2. Whatever 16/441 or 24/96, if you play house, 16/441 it's good enough.
3. Normalize your track to get the best dynamic.

best regards.

Pierre.

Gilboe · Post by **Gilboe** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:26 pm

I too notice differences in the sound quality from program to program, even if they tell us that is impossible... It is one reason why I still mix in Logic on a PC... nothing sounds as good as it does...

But for live sets, man... come on...

First off, I've been to a LOT of clubs, and I'd say the first port of call for sound compromise is the majority of PA systems in the club. Even the extremely nice ones are far from "pristine" Have you tried your A/B tests on a variety of cluba PA systems, not just at home on (I am assuming) a pristine setup?

And then, I hate to tell you this, but the VAST majority of people who are listening to you spin can't even begin to tell the difference you are talking about, so I say go with whatever makes for the most inspired set.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:30 pm

Gilboe wrote: And then, I hate to tell you this, but the VAST majority of people who are listening to you spin can't even begin to tell the difference you are talking about, so I say go with whatever makes for the most inspired set.

I agree. Maximizing your quality prior to going to the house's rig is like showing a renoir through frosted glass.

...Or like putting lipstick on a monkey.

Lets talk about sound baby

Lets talk about sound baby

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Re: Lets talk about sound baby

Re: Lets talk about sound baby

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